Weapons of mass destruction?
There aren't any. Period. This is, finally, one debate we can end.
For the past few years, ex-FLDS members, anti-polygamy activists and government officials have spewed endlessly about the potential of the FLDS for armed violence.
They claimed a cave above Hildale, Utah, homebase for the FLDS, was crammed full of guns. That FLDS president Warren S. Jeffs moved around with armed bodyguards. That the temple at the YFZ Ranch included an incinerator where sinners were burned up. That sect members would do the ''Jim Jones'' thing rather than surrender to authorities. That bodies were buried all over the ranch. That little babies were being killed and buried back in a plot in the twin cities.
Three weeks ago as a Texas SWAT team prepared to enter the FLDS' temple at YFZRanch, a local reporter told me officials believed the building was booby-trapped and the sect set off bombs once law officers entered it.
Days later, another reporter spread a rumor through the media corps that there were underground tunnels at the ranch and the people were hiding in them.
Apparently he hadn't heard the ranch sits on a 300-feet deep bed of limestone, which begins just feet below ground level.
Here are the facts:
The only thing in the cave were shelves of old bottled peaches.
No armed bodyguards were with Warren Jeffs when he was arrested on I-15 outside Las Vegas and no guns were found in the vehicle, either.
There is no incinerator at the YFZ Ranch temple and the building was not booby-trapped. When a SWAT team prepared to enter the temple, the men engaged in passive resistance. They stood shoulder-to-shoulder around its outer wall and sang sacred hymns.
There were five hunting rifles in a locked safe at the ranch, which the FLDS pointed out to law enforcement in the early stages of the raid.
There was no cyanide poison at the ranch, though that made headlines one day. Evidence taken from the ranch included a document about a ''cyanide poisoning document,'' taken from a first aid manual.
There were two graves found at the ranch. One belonged to a woman who died of breast cancer. The other is that of a 3-year-old child who died when a vehicle drove off a road at the ranch. The other mounds were flower beds.
The children's graveyard in the twin towns is just that: A burial ground for infants who were stillborn or died during childhood. It has been in use since the 1960s.
For the past few years, ex-FLDS members, anti-polygamy activists and government officials have spewed endlessly about the potential of the FLDS for armed violence.
They claimed a cave above Hildale, Utah, homebase for the FLDS, was crammed full of guns. That FLDS president Warren S. Jeffs moved around with armed bodyguards. That the temple at the YFZ Ranch included an incinerator where sinners were burned up. That sect members would do the ''Jim Jones'' thing rather than surrender to authorities. That bodies were buried all over the ranch. That little babies were being killed and buried back in a plot in the twin cities.
Three weeks ago as a Texas SWAT team prepared to enter the FLDS' temple at YFZRanch, a local reporter told me officials believed the building was booby-trapped and the sect set off bombs once law officers entered it.
Days later, another reporter spread a rumor through the media corps that there were underground tunnels at the ranch and the people were hiding in them.
Apparently he hadn't heard the ranch sits on a 300-feet deep bed of limestone, which begins just feet below ground level.
Here are the facts:
The only thing in the cave were shelves of old bottled peaches.
No armed bodyguards were with Warren Jeffs when he was arrested on I-15 outside Las Vegas and no guns were found in the vehicle, either.
There is no incinerator at the YFZ Ranch temple and the building was not booby-trapped. When a SWAT team prepared to enter the temple, the men engaged in passive resistance. They stood shoulder-to-shoulder around its outer wall and sang sacred hymns.
There were five hunting rifles in a locked safe at the ranch, which the FLDS pointed out to law enforcement in the early stages of the raid.
There was no cyanide poison at the ranch, though that made headlines one day. Evidence taken from the ranch included a document about a ''cyanide poisoning document,'' taken from a first aid manual.
There were two graves found at the ranch. One belonged to a woman who died of breast cancer. The other is that of a 3-year-old child who died when a vehicle drove off a road at the ranch. The other mounds were flower beds.
The children's graveyard in the twin towns is just that: A burial ground for infants who were stillborn or died during childhood. It has been in use since the 1960s.
26 Comments:
Thank you for writing about facts instead of hearsay. Thank you for making an effort to find truth. Thank you for speaking out and refusing to be a bystander.
"Thou shalt not be a victim. Thou shalt not be a perpetrator. Above all, thou shalt not be a bystander."
--Holocaust Museum, Washington, D.C.
Thank you Brooke! It is so refreshing to hear from an "outsider" what we have been saying all along about these rumors. It doesn't seem to matter what an FLDS member says to defend themselves, the general public wants sensationalism. When someone like you gives an honest and objective view we appreciate it so much.
Honest and objective?
ROTFL
txblue
Could you be a little more specific? I can see your doubting the objectivity due to your prior posting on other threads but Brooke is quoting the facts in every case here. Where is the less than honesty?
The points you make Brooke involve hearsay that was always hearsay ... never proven facts. So I applaud you for investigating and gathering proof to discredit this hearsay, like proof an incinerator doesn't against, for instance.
I'd be very interested to hear the proof of the following hearsay items as well, Brooke, and if you're up to it, please help prove all of us who think the FLDS participates in abusive human rights violations wrong:
• FLDS abandons many young boys for petty misbehaviors
• FLDS have taken wives and children away from men in the name of religion and the men are left feeling if they fight for their families they'll be damned
• FLDS practice incest, as determined by a genetic disease among them
• FLDS groom children to think that if they don't follow the prophet's (a convicted rapist/accomplice) orders, they'll be damned
• FLDS groom children to think that if they don't marry WHEN they are told regardless of age, they'll be damned
• FLDS have indeed allowed children age 13 (maybe younger?) to marry and give birth
Here's another fact, Brooke, my dad is friends with an attorney who's been assigned as ad litem for two of the children. THERE WERE SOMETHING LIKE 20 BOYS IN THE OVER 400 CHILDREN. I don't think anything more needs to be said. If Jeffs behaviours including 'ordering all dogs killed', regularly 'excommunicating' men and 'reassigning' their families and any other number of activities were not enough evidence that the place was being run by a COMPLETE sadistic lunatic, I think this one statistic can't really be questioned. This is not hearsay, this is fact.
fttc,
It is the entire tone of all of her pieces.
In the second article she blogged on this, Ms. Adams brings up the Short Creek Raid. In the next, she questions why the authorities are attempting to enter the temple and implies that it will have to be destroyed, like the one at Navoo.
In the next, she says she hopes the information that the police obtain justify the raid - but then immediately expresses her doubt that it will. Note that this is before any information has been released, and she's already expressing her bias.
Later, she speaks of a 17-year old boy married to a 17-year old girl, with one child already and one due in August. No comment was made as to whether the marriage was legal or not, whether the proper documents had been filed or whether a crime might have been committed.
The next article has a link to the GritsForBreakfast blog (not that I have a problem with Grits, he has a position on this but as far as I can tell is not a working journalist) - isn't it strange that there are no links to blogs that support the state's actions?
She then posts an e-mail from an opponent of the raid - again, where is the balance?
When she spoke of the ruling, she painted a very sympathetic picture of the FLDS women - but did not mention anything on the testimony showing that the children were at risk. Again, no balance.
In regards to 'Mother's Milk', another link to a blog supporting the FLDS mothers. Again, nothing from the other side of the story.
A snide article about foster care, asking for someone to show up in a 'black leather skirt and red bustier' in order to be a foster home applicant. That sounds reasonable - or an attempt to slam CPS, you pick.
She publicizes a rally protesting the actions of Texas.
She quotes someone that criticizes the educational oversight of home-schooling in Texas, although the TEA treated the FLDS home-schooled children exactly the same as every other home-schooled child in Texas (of course, she omitted that part).
I've already commented on her support of a biased defense expert attempting to get in with CPS.
Almost every single article has been slanted and biased.
Why should we trust her position on this one?
This post has been removed by the author.
txbluesman:
Yes, I feel Brooke is honest to the best of her knowledge and she has shown objectivity in her reporting. In reference to her post: Have you ever been in the cavern in Hildale? Have you ever seen the cemetary? I have, and I appreciate Brooke for coming personally and doing her homework instead of just spewing out rumors that so many are eager to swallow. You accuse her of being biased because she is willing to investigate before condemnation?
As far as her giving balance, she IS telling the other side of the story!
"Thank you for writing about facts instead of hearsay."
"Brooke has been in journalism for a long time, and I'm sure glad for the unbiased side of her stories."
Earth to kathy and whatsup. You are reading a BLOG. Brooke Adams doesn't follow rules for hard news or objective reporting here. She doesn't attribute sources for all these people that have been saying that there are weapons. Please note that anonymous reporters "told" her. Unattributed sources and no evidence provided by what they've written.(They probably haven't written it if they are real reporters dealing with facts.)
Neither does she attribute sources for the list of things found at the Zion Ranch.
You are getting info on this blog that's blended with a whole lot of opinion, slant, and provocativeness. (Because she wants people to read it, argue, discuss.)
whatsup,
I was responding to a question by fttc.
I don't have a problem with opposing views, I have discussed them on various boards with numerous people in a civil manner, as gentlemen.
I don't have to agree with them, as the post you are criticizing points out. An example is Scott Henson (GritsForBreakfast) - he and I don't agree, but we have had civil discussions.
The difference is that Mr. Henson is not an active journalist, and therefore has no professional standard to present an unbiased picture. Ms. Brooke is an active journalist, and has a professional standard of ethics that she is supposed to meet.
As to your opinion of me? I can really care less. From the inarticulate post, I doubt that I would ever care.
I believe that if you read the news articles authored, or co-authored, by Brooke you will find far more hard fact and very little opinion. As one poster said, these blogs are to stimulate dialogue and pique interest, as well as show the human tragedy side of this unfolding drama....
Irrespective of which side one comes down on in all of this, there is no denying the pain and horror the individual families are experiencing.
And as with any closed or clandestine group, rumors swirl and abound.
I think Brooke has done a good job of debunking many of the rumors and has kept us focused on the human side of things. Nothing wrong with that.
I haven't seen her post any personal opinion, one way or the other, about the beliefs and practices of the FLDS. I have seen her post that she is Roman Catholic. That's one of the few personal glimpses she has given.....
I'm having a hard time seeing the problem, here....
I am personally horrified at the way it seems life plays out in this group. However, I certainly don't condem the believers. At least not those who don't have the ability to make informed choices. I certainly have a hard time with the likes of Warren Jeffs who strikes me as the pentultimate meglomaniac! (forgive me if I misspelled that)
Anyway, it seems that this blog affords a glimpse into the humanity and not just the hard facts. It gives context to the news and fact reporting.
I like that.
To TxBluesman -- Brooke has been covering polygamy a long time before you got involved, and a long time before the Texas media, CPS, and law enforcement got in on the act. She has sources. She has expertise. She has credibility.
However, having read many of your posts, I detect a significant lack of objectivity on your part. Do you know these people, have any sources, any credibility, or any history? Didn't think so.
It turns out that many of her statements are backed up by court documents, and surprisingly enough by the testimony of state witnesses, and interviews with the local sheriff! So, your attacks on her accuracy simply reveal your own ignorance and/or apathy.
Tx,
Feeling a little touchy today?
Thanks for the answear on bigamy law. It is pretty much the same as most states I have checked.
I believe Utah tried to use it in the Tom Green case and ended up settling for "sex with a minor" charge.
I'm not an attorney but I can see some problems proving all of the necessary facts to convict under that law.
Does Texas accept these "Spiritual marriages" as valid? Does 20+ people living in a communal type living arrangement constitute "cohabitation" as to any 2 or 3 of them?
The best chance of prosecution will be on the "sexual assualt" laws.
BTW, Brooke posted links to the FLDS web site called something like "the truth about FLDS". I recomment reading it. Gives some good insight into how these folks think.
TBM
blog
Short for web log, an online, regularly updated journal or newsletter that is readily accessible to the general public by virtue of being posted on a website. Blogs typically report and comment on topics of interest to the author...
Her reporting has been in line with most, just quicker.
On this blog, we should expect her to feel free to post her opinions or discuss topics she selects. It's a bit like an editorial opinion.
jack,
I hate to break the news to you, but Green was convicted of 4 counts Bigamy in 2001.
The other thing to be aware of is that the Bigamy laws are significantly different in Texas from how they are written in Utah.
In Utah, one commits Bigamy:
A person is guilty of bigamy when, knowing he has a husband or wife or knowing the other person has a husband or wife, the person purports to marry another person or cohabits with another person.
In Texas, one commits Bigamy:
An individual commits an offense
if:
(1) he is legally married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry a person other than his spouse in this state, or any other state or foreign country, under circumstances that would, but for the actor's prior marriage, constitute a marriage; or
(B) lives with a person other than his spouse in this state under the appearance of being married; or
(2) he knows that a married person other than his spouse is married and he:
(A) purports to marry or does marry that person in this state, or any other state or foreign country, under circumstances that would, but for the person's prior marriage,
constitute a marriage; or
(B) lives with that person in this state under the appearance of being married.
The statutes, although similar, are different, as is the case law. In Utah, to prove a common-law marriage, you must have a court order (UT Code Ann Sec 30-1-4.5) and meet 5 criteria.
In Texas, you merely have to hold out the appearance of being married, a much lower standard of proof.
A so-called 'spiritual' marriage may be enough to get by the courts in Utah (though it apparently hasnt'), but it will get you convicted in Texas. That, with the other factors, is enough to prove Bigamy here.
To Hannah
You are mistaken about the number of boys - another bit of hearsay going around. Here is the current tally, which could change tomorrow as we've seen over the past few weeks.
There are a total of 463 FLDS children - 250 females, 213 males - in state custody in Texas. Here is a breakdown of that count:
* 0-2: 101, 49 females, 52 males
* 3-5: 99, 46 females, 53 males
* 6-9: 131, 68 females, 63 males
* 10-13: 62, 34 females, 28 males
* 14-17: 42, 27 females, 15 males
* Disputed age: 26 females, now classified as 17 or younger.
* Two boys who turned 18 while in state custody also have voluntarily chosen to stay with younger boys.
Source: Texas Child Protective Services
Maybe I'm naive, but it seems to me that there is enough "real" awful stuff in this community to keep folks busy for years. Why the need to sensationalize and downright 'create' stuff? Like the numbers of males and females?...who the hell cares how many of each there are?????
We've got thousands of people in this group, not just in Texas, who believe that women are chattel, that it is perfectly fine for young girls to have no lives except as housekeepers and baby makers....young boys who get booted out, ill equipped to do anything....education is almost non-existant....
Lies about the rest of us are believed wholeheartedly, hence making the concept of choice laughable....
Why can't we focus on how to get good education, and real knowledge about the world and about choice to these folks, men and women, and children...and then, if the adults, operating from real knowledge, choose to continue, that's okay...but lets put some protections and assurances in that make sure children, both current and future, have real education and real information so they do have real choices available to them.....
Somehow I doubt that giving people information and choice is going to cause folks to flee en masse....but it might make for a healthier place to live and healthier children...and rreal leadership may emerge and not the likes of Warren Jeffs....
From what I have read and heard, there are other polygamist communities where real choice is real....where education is not controlled...and where folks thrive...maybe we can help that beon the horizon for this group if we stop sensationalizing and start a real dialogue about how to help....and rely on the power of the press and pen..letters to the judge and the masses of ad litem counsel to make good decisions and help pave a solid path toward a reasonable life for all f this community....
I love this blog...its honesty and dialogue....
this hateful gossipy stuff has no place here.....
rericson, I enjoyed your post.
These people may seem strange to me. I may not agree with their beliefs and choices. I may think they’re misled or just plain wrong. Lots of people think the same thing about what I believe and my choices. Lies and hearsay are written about my church all the time, so I’m not so quick to jump on the bandwagon and believe everything that’s said about the FLDS. I think there are a lot of misunderstandings and some boldfaced lies circulating around about them.
TXbluesman: You should see some common wording to Utahs bigamy laws. Who do you think helped TX write the changes in 2005?
Brooke has been around for years on this beat. She has sources and does a lot of research and background work. People bad mouth her for not just writing the same stuff everyone else does. I have a lot of respect for someone that will look and question what is just "out there" as fact, when in most circumstances it is opinion. If you were doing a story about a divorce, would you just look at the story of one side or realize there are bad feelings and it takes looking at both sides to get at something that might be the truth?
OK, I understand that everyone here are fans of Ms. Adams.
Where are the stories or blogs on the children that have been abused? You say that she has sources - why doesn't she talk about:
The fourth wife of Lee Roy Jessop, aged 33, who stated that her birth date was 3/24/1990 (aged 18 years, 0 months) and that she had a 10-month old baby, meaning she was approximately 17 years, 2 months old when the baby was born, and was approximately 16 years, 5 months old when impregnated.
I mean, I would like to know the human side of a 30 year old man committing statutory sexual assault on a 16 year old child.
What about the 19 year old mother of two (born 09/16/1988)? The second child was born on 08/19/2005, when the mother was 16 years, 11 months old. The first child was born on 08/12/2004 when the mother was 15 years, 10 months old. Isn't learning about what happened to this victim of sexual abuse a human side of the story?
Or what about the under 16 year old second wife of Richard Jessop Barlow. The 16 year old mother of 4 would be interesting to hear about, a human interest story.
I'm all about her writing the facts. Why doesn't she try to get to those facts?
Or does she not care about the abused children? I haven't seen anything except support for the polygamist position.
That's not a reporter, it's an advocate.
Yes, I'd like to hear their stories too. I'm open to hearing horrible stories of abuse if that's the truth. Are you open to hearing ANYTHING they have to say even if they claim they haven't ever been abused and that they chose this life? I'm not claiming they would, but what if they said they were happy with their lives?
If they did, I suspect some would accuse them of being brainwashed and trauma-bonded and unable to make their own choices.
Yes, let's hear their stories!
Sure, I would like to hear it.
You realize of course that their consent is meaningless, right?
That's why it's called statutory rape in most states.
We'll still prosecute the criminal acts of the adults, but I would like to hear the side of both the victims and the abusers.
Not that she will do it - it doesn't fit her agenda.
txbluesman,
Has it occurred to you that some rely on this blog for the sides that are not easily accessed elsewhere? Clearly information about ages and probable times of impregnation, and by whom is available somewhere else, or you wouldn't be able to cite all of it.
Perhaps you simply enjoy being ornery?
I don't think I've ever seen, or read anything from Brooke Adams condoning criminal behavior where it relates to children. Perhaps you might meander back through the archives and read some of her posts when Warren Jeffs was a fugitive and when he was on trial.....
I think if you want a discussion of the pros and cons and inherent problems in polygamy you'll find all sorts of people here to dialogue with. However, if simply stirring the pot and being cantakerous for the sake of some personal need to vent is your agenda, I think you will find a lot of us ignorring you from now on....
Hope you have a lovely evening....and that you find something to smile about...I wouldn't want your face to freeze in that grimace you seem to sport so often....
Regina
Hope you have a lovely evening....and that you find something to smile about...I wouldn't want your face to freeze in that grimace you seem to sport so often....
Regina
Think about it again rericson. Really we would love to see his face freeze over. After all, hasn't the world been waiting for years for "hell to freeze over."
WOW
I bet all those guys with multiple wives at the YFZ are madder than a hatter when they get indicted on bigamy.
As I remember Holm tried to take his conviction to the SCOTUS and they turned him down.
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