John Walsh takes on appeal
What a day. I told photographer Trent Nelson, who arrived in Texas last night, I was not sure what we were going to be doing today. Hahahaha.
First, here is a release from John Walsh about how his testimony during the April 17-18 hearing was characterized by the state in its appeal to the Texas Supreme Court.
State of Texas Falsifies Walsh Testimony in Supreme Court Filing
MISSOURI CITY, TEXAS | 23 May 2008 | Dr. John Walsh would like to correct several falsifications and distortions made by the State of Texas regarding his testimony at the 14-day FLDS hearings in San Angelo, Texas. These falsifications and distortions were made in the Petition for Writ of Mandamus filed on May 23, 2008 with the Supreme Court of Texas by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services.
Here are the falsifications and distortions made by the state (pp. 6-7 in the filing):
1. Dr. Walsh indicated that among the FLDS, the age of physical development for a girl made them available for marriage… Some FLDS members expressed the opinion that when a female begins her menstrual cycle, that is the sign that she is ready for marriage.
Correction: Dr. Walsh actually said that there is no formal teaching in the religion as to when a girl is old enough to marry. Different members of the FLDS leadership have given a variety of opinions on the question. For example, some members have said 20 with a couple of years of college, some 18, some16 with parental consent, and some when a female begins her menstrual cycle whether that is 17 or 14. Therefore, you would have to go family by family to determine what they actually believe as to when their daughter is mature enough to marry. Dr. Walsh also notes that each family varies in its adherence to the religious teachings of various FLDS leaders. Dr. Walsh further notes that the majority of FLDS women are of the legal age to marry when they form sexual partnerships, whether such a partnership is a legal marriage or not.
2. Dr. Walsh identified Warren Jeffs as the prophet who leads the FLDS.
Correction: In his actual testimony, Dr. Walsh said that while Warren Jeffs was presently the nominal leader of the organization, the FLDS were in a transitory period due to Mr. Jeffs incarceration in the State of Utah, and it was uncertain within the Mormon intellectual community how the real power in the organization was presently distributed. Because he was not asked the question during court, Dr. Walsh did not testify as to the role and limits of a prophet in Mormon theology. Mormons use the term ‘prophet’ in a more limited way than typically used in Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, and Islamic theology. Dr. Walsh notes that a ‘prophet’ in Mormonism has less power than the Pope in Roman Catholicism due to Mormon teachings on free will (agency) and the lack of prophetic infallibility in Mormonism.
3. Dr. Walsh defined a household in the FLDS faith as being centered around a patriarch or husband who will have one or more wives.
Correction: In his testimony, Dr. Walsh was referring to how FLDS members saw themselves as belonging to heavenly families organized around a patriarch or husband. Dr. Walsh was not making legal distinctions as to what qualifies as a household under the law. Dr. Walsh notes that from a practical standpoint, there is a great deal of variety in how polygamous families are organized. In some families, the husband may live with his wives and children in one large family dwelling. In other families, each wife may maintain a separate residence and the husband just visits each family unit periodically. Given this variety, a husband with two wives might be considered one household in one case, and two separate households in another, even though they are considered one heavenly family in both cases. Given the great deal of autonomy with which each husband deals with his wives and offspring, it is inconceivable for all the families of an FLDS community to be considered as one household. It is worth noting that only about half of married FLDS members are even in polygamous relationships.
First, here is a release from John Walsh about how his testimony during the April 17-18 hearing was characterized by the state in its appeal to the Texas Supreme Court.
State of Texas Falsifies Walsh Testimony in Supreme Court Filing
MISSOURI CITY, TEXAS | 23 May 2008 | Dr. John Walsh would like to correct several falsifications and distortions made by the State of Texas regarding his testimony at the 14-day FLDS hearings in San Angelo, Texas. These falsifications and distortions were made in the Petition for Writ of Mandamus filed on May 23, 2008 with the Supreme Court of Texas by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services.
Here are the falsifications and distortions made by the state (pp. 6-7 in the filing):
1. Dr. Walsh indicated that among the FLDS, the age of physical development for a girl made them available for marriage… Some FLDS members expressed the opinion that when a female begins her menstrual cycle, that is the sign that she is ready for marriage.
Correction: Dr. Walsh actually said that there is no formal teaching in the religion as to when a girl is old enough to marry. Different members of the FLDS leadership have given a variety of opinions on the question. For example, some members have said 20 with a couple of years of college, some 18, some16 with parental consent, and some when a female begins her menstrual cycle whether that is 17 or 14. Therefore, you would have to go family by family to determine what they actually believe as to when their daughter is mature enough to marry. Dr. Walsh also notes that each family varies in its adherence to the religious teachings of various FLDS leaders. Dr. Walsh further notes that the majority of FLDS women are of the legal age to marry when they form sexual partnerships, whether such a partnership is a legal marriage or not.
2. Dr. Walsh identified Warren Jeffs as the prophet who leads the FLDS.
Correction: In his actual testimony, Dr. Walsh said that while Warren Jeffs was presently the nominal leader of the organization, the FLDS were in a transitory period due to Mr. Jeffs incarceration in the State of Utah, and it was uncertain within the Mormon intellectual community how the real power in the organization was presently distributed. Because he was not asked the question during court, Dr. Walsh did not testify as to the role and limits of a prophet in Mormon theology. Mormons use the term ‘prophet’ in a more limited way than typically used in Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, and Islamic theology. Dr. Walsh notes that a ‘prophet’ in Mormonism has less power than the Pope in Roman Catholicism due to Mormon teachings on free will (agency) and the lack of prophetic infallibility in Mormonism.
3. Dr. Walsh defined a household in the FLDS faith as being centered around a patriarch or husband who will have one or more wives.
Correction: In his testimony, Dr. Walsh was referring to how FLDS members saw themselves as belonging to heavenly families organized around a patriarch or husband. Dr. Walsh was not making legal distinctions as to what qualifies as a household under the law. Dr. Walsh notes that from a practical standpoint, there is a great deal of variety in how polygamous families are organized. In some families, the husband may live with his wives and children in one large family dwelling. In other families, each wife may maintain a separate residence and the husband just visits each family unit periodically. Given this variety, a husband with two wives might be considered one household in one case, and two separate households in another, even though they are considered one heavenly family in both cases. Given the great deal of autonomy with which each husband deals with his wives and offspring, it is inconceivable for all the families of an FLDS community to be considered as one household. It is worth noting that only about half of married FLDS members are even in polygamous relationships.
40 Comments:
So, would this not be a form of perjury? Will the State of Texas CPS be prosecuted for this?
Is Dr. Walsh's statement admissible?
More lies by the CPS.
LET THE LAWSUITS BEGIN! TEXAS HAS A BUDGET SURPLUS!
http://www.boycott-texas.org/
This is just incredible! I hope this lying, corrupt department and judge are exposed and soon! I am so outraged by all of this!! How do we get it into the national media?
I don't read that Walsh's testimony was falsified; it was summarized and he didn't like the summarization.
Walsh is back-pedaling so he can keep his position with a bunch of pedophiles and pedophile defenders. Just like the author of this blog, Brooke Adams. And just like many of the bloggers here.
Tell me again why it was so unfair to take sex offender Warren Jeffs picture out of the Book of Mormon. And why the FLDS really really really wanted it there. Maybe CPS could just replace with the pic of him frenching the little girl. That would certainly make the FLDS happy.
Send all your pictures of naked little children and little girls being raped to
ramblings of a plural man@
http://www.boycott-texas.org/
I knew that the CPS has falsified Walsh's testimony when all they did regarding minimum marriage age was mention the part about some FLDS believe that it begins as low as menstruation. I had previously read John Walsh's testimony and knew that that was only the last sentence in any sentences describing the various views of what's the appropriate age all the way up to 20 by different FLDS members.
Now, if I can detect that IMMEDIATELY upon reading the CPS brief to SCOT, I certainly hope and expect State Supreme Court justices to see the deceit.
Thanks Brooke!
Always on top of things and sharing them daily with your audience.
The testimony of any at the 14 Day Hearing is of value, but the reasons given by Walthers for her ruling (Order) to take custody are the big question.
None I have read of, wrote to or been in contact with have seen her Order For Temporary Custody, that should show why she decided to take custody of the children, or they have told me they could not share it for privacy reasons.
I would think there is an Order for each "suit", and that at least one copy given to many has to ID the private information as "330 children". I wish someone would redact WTH is private and share that Order.
Back to that SCOT Writ and what the CPS crew is doing, it certainly looks like they are trying to re-write what went on at the 14 day hearing.
Even if Walsh's testimony is taken to mean what the CPS crew is trying to twist it into, it does not show any "immediate" danger for abuse to anyone, IMO, other than a big maybe for young girls reaching puberty.
Oh, please. Believing in presumption of innocence is not the same as being a pedophile. (Or, more properly, statutory rapist - not the same thing.)
I wonder why the photo of Jeffs is supposed to be evidence against Dan and Louisa Jessop.
THERE'S NO PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE AFTER SOMEONE IS CONVICTED IN COURT, Louisa. The perpetual support and "explaining away" of child sexual abuse by FLDS and supporters is clear evidence that there is a problem that must be addressed by the responsible and caring members of society.
Abuse is the teaching/conditioning of children that there are no sexual boundaries between a child and an adult. It's the foundation for molestation.
CPS is absolutely right that this community should not be allowed to raise children. Whether or not there is legal substantiation to protect the children, is another matter. It remains to be adjudicated. I am convinced that there should be a means and that people who genuinely care about the welfare of children must fight for whatever legal changes are needed, to make it possible.
Womankine says:
""Abuse is the teaching/conditioning of children that there are no sexual boundaries between a child and an adult. It's the foundation for molestation.""
If all members of the FLDS are "taught or conditioned" to believe this is true, then where are all the children who have been molested? Why do the FLDS children seem so innocent of sexual behavior if there are no sexual boundaries between adult and child?
In addition, it would seem that a rule against physical contact between unmarried males and females would place a heterosexual boundary between child and adult, but would not preclude homosexual contact - another thing for which there seems to be no evidence in the children the CPS has in custody.
The abject hypocracy here is unbelievable!
Womankine...you spend all sorts of time trying to sound 'reasonable' and 'concilliatory'....but your true feelings are encapsulated in your one, profoundly ugly sentence, "CPS is absolutely right that this community should not be allowed to raise children."
Nothing else you have to say means anything. Short of retracting that statment, you don't even belong in a civil conversation.
For the rest of us who are not part of the FLDS community, I think this has been, and will continue to be, an incredible learning experience....
I started on this journey believing myself to be open minded....but wow!
I got hit squuare between the eyes with how much of the hype I had bought into....
I will probably never agree with all of the beliefs that the FLDS hold....and I don't have to.....
And I still have reservations concerning how much real choice there is for members of the community....
On the other hand, I can vehemently defend the way's of life thousands of miles away that I think we had no right interfering in....I sure as hell can defend the right of the FLDS to choose their own culture....
But what I have seen these last few weeks is that this is a group of people with as diverse thinking as any other community in America....at first glance it may look terribly homogenous.....but as I listen to the individuals, they are no different than the rest of us....
I'm sure that some of what the Flora's and Corolyn's have to say is true...but those were their unique experiences....
Hell, my parents were pillars of the community....had money, held offices, blah, blah, blah....but in private, in our home, my sister and I were terribly abused...but no one in their immediate or extended social circle would ever have guessed that of them....and it certainly didn't make our small upstate N.Y. community an entire community of abusers.....
Anyway, I hope the learning has gone both ways...that the FLDS have learned that there are folks out here, in the larger world, that that can be friends....
That there is middle ground where we can come together...and there are common causes to join forces on.....
And on a simpler, far more basic level, there are recipes to be shared....and kindnesses to be exchanged....
Anyway, I don't know about Texas, but the weather here, in Northeast Pa. is beautiful today....and I am going to go putter in my garden and watch the goldfish chase each other in the pond......and think about how wonderful that my world has expanded just a little bit more, with some very nice people...some of the bloggers...the FLDS women who have shared so much of themselves.....
And Brooke....I hope you get a breather this weekend......you deserve one.....
"you don't even belong in a civil conversation."
-----Regina Ericson
"Just shut the f*&^ up!!!!!!!!!!"
-----Regina Ericson
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THERE'S NO PRESUMPTION OF INNOCENCE AFTER SOMEONE IS CONVICTED IN COURT, Louisa.
I must have missed the news article about Dan Jessop's conviction. Care to link?
I have no link. I took your reference as being to Warren Jeffs. Apologies if I misinterpreted.
Regarding pic-GATE, a thought occurred to me a few minutes ago...remember that wedding day pic of Warren's late Father, Rulon, that was circulated around of the two claimed 13 year olds that he had married when he was 80? And remember how it turned out that the FACT was was that, on their wedding day, one of the sisters was 20 and the other one was 24, and NOT 13 as it was falsely originally claimed by the haters? These women just LOOK younger with their long haired, no makeup, schoolgirl dress and extremely healthy diets.
Somehow, someway, at some point, common sense has got to start prevailing.....
Somebody in a position of authority has to make a decision to stop the hysteria and come up with a plan for the future.....
It would certainly be best if that decision came from the State of Texas...chances are, based on what we've seen, that isn't going to happen...
But perhaps it can come from the ranks of the FLDS???
I can't remember his name, but he's a fortyish, heavy set guy...well spoken....has a big, engaging smile...he's been the 'spokesperson' on Larry King, etc. for the group.....
Anyway, perhaps him, he could talk with the community and put forth a 'plan'....a plan for the future.....that lays out the fundamental ways for living that will keep the state and the FLDS community from being at odds with one another.....
And perhaps the local folks, maybe in concert with the state, can add a component to their local human service spectrum that will be able to provide transitional services for any person choosing to leave the FLDS....
In turn, the FLDS could agree to assure that their young people are made aware of the fact that if they make that choice, services are available....
From everything I've read, it seems there are any number of FLDS who have family members in the outside world that they remain in contact with...it's not like the Amish where, if the coice is made to leave, the person is forever shunned from the community.....
Peersonally, I have no idea whether Warren Jeffs is a pedophile, or not.....but even if he is, it doesn't make every male in the community one....and since there is a reasonable explanation on the table for "the picture", the picture should be a moot issue....it has nothing to do with today...with the future....or with the individuals in Texas....'cept maybe the young lady in the picture...and there is no reason that any issues she may, or may not, have can't be ascertained and dealt with as an individual....
Personally, I don't know if the woman Carolyn Jessup wrote about is so heavy handed with her discipline that it rises to abuse...maybe she is...but what I do know is that many, many parents who have been abusive, when shown that it is abuse, and shown that there are better, non-abusive ways to ellicit the same behavioral changes they wanted, stop being abusive.....
I'm sure there are a few folks in the world that hurt kids because they take joy in causing pain.......but that just isn't real for the average parent....the average parent loves their children....period....
And that isn't to say that lots of folks don't abuse their kids....it is to say that even the worst of the abusers can change.....and be really good parents...I've seen it happen, time and time again...
So if a 'guiding principle' were developed and articulated saying that if and when abusive, or potentially abusive, discipline practices are seen, X steps will be taken to abate the situation....
I just think it is time to come up with a plan to stop this game of constantly uping the ante and apply some common sense to solution focused action......
1. The guy you're talking about is Willie Jessop. Now that they've ordered 600 voter registration cards, I hope and expect to see Sheriff Willie Jessop in front of Willie's name in the future. Willie is the common sense solution for the future in El Dorado. He'll treated the bigoted Baptists fairly and show them how to be true Christians.
Re: pedophilia, no offense, but you, like most people, don't understand the defintion. Pedophilia is attraction to prepubescent children. No one has brought forth any evidence of that...the state has alleged that their are 5 teens that are or have been pregnant. I believe 1 is pregnant now; and the other 4 have been pregnant. All of those girls are 17 about to turn 18 except for one I believe which has turned 18. All of them had their babies at either 16 or 17. The worst that anyone could say about the fathers, IF they are older, which hasn't been established, but, IF they are older, 'statutory' rape with women they're going to live the rest of their lives with anyways (better than 90% chance vs 50% chance in the rest of the USA) even after they're successfully prosecuted, which, I doubt will even occur.
Like Gary Naler, author of '1920' states, the reason why the FLDS sends much of sodomy-loving, transvestite-loving, fornication-loving, adultery-loving, abortion-loving America into such a tizzy is because they show what slime most of America is.
I'm also a little confused by your comment about the government setting up a program to assist people wanting to get out of the FLDS.
Isn't that bass ackwards?
I see only a small percentage of people wanting to leave FLDS.
I see a much larger percentage of people wanting DESPERATELY to 'escape' America's society of degradation where sodomites are celebrated, transvestites are celebrated, fornication/adultery are celebrated, and where MORE than 25% of our teens TODAY are infected with sometimes lifethreatening and sterilization producing STDS, 37% of all babies that ARE born are born out of wedlock, and where 31,000,000+ precious HUMAN BABIES HAVE BEEN MURDERED since Roe v Wade with millions more being tragically added all of the time.
What PLANET are you from...what part of 'radical extremist' Muslims are WRONG when they say that America is the Great Satan?
Can you look me or anyone in the eye and with a straight face and claim that GOD has authored any of the above that I've outlined here in America, publicly available statistics that demonstrate our nation's depraved morals?
Sodom and Gomorrah is what America has become. And you know what God did to Sodom and Gomorrah...
...if God were to bring judgement down on America, I would expect that YFZ ranch would be one of the few places in America that He'd leave standing.
Now, who has the 'guts' and the 'stupidity' to stand up and defend American's moral values?
And no...before the false accusations start flying...I'm not nor ever have been FLDS/LDS.
I'm the grandson of a Pentecostal Preacher and I'm a theological scholar.
Child marriage or rape of a post-pubescent child is not pedophilia, it's ephebophilia, however, the practice is often defined as illegal, as it is in this situation.
It would seem that the bigoted Baptists have nothing on a bigoted johnlester, who characterizes all others besides FLDS as sodomy-loving, transvestite-loving, fornication-loving, adultery-loving, abortion-loving.
There's absolutely no evidence that the people who are against abusing a child, support the activities on this list. Let's make it clear. This is about criminal behavior as it relates to CHILDREN: the most vulnerable among us. Many of the people who want children protected are more than willing to limit law enforcement and child oversight to FLDS who believe in the practice of child abuse and subject their children to same. However, the indications are that the members of the Zion group do believe and practice.
Those beliefs and practices are reflected in the continual defense of same, as well as keeping a convicted sex offender and confessed molester of daughter and sister, in the office of "God on Earth" and totalitarian leader. As well as giving him complete power over their lives. It's easy pickins for a pedophile or ephebophile, either Jeffs or his group of "trainees".
Incidentally, I have a dear friend who was raped, from the ages of three through eleven by her uncle minister and deacon, both in a Pentacostal Church. Look to your own house.
Also, anybody that was EVER so gullible as to believe the Jessop girls should be prosecuted for STUPIDITY if they continue to do so today.
What is the Jessop girl's central theme?
That there is a 'systematic and pervasive pattern' of underage marriage and child sexual abuse in the FLDS.
What did the Short Creek raid of 1953 prove?
Exactly the opposite. Not 1 criminal conviction. All the people were tested for STDs. Not 1 infection was found. This was and probably still is the largest group in the world ever so tested with 0 STDs found.
After 2 months of investigation, what has been found at YFZ?
5 girls aged 17 or 18 today who gave birth for the first time at 16 or 17.
American, IF it HAD any shame, would HANG ITS HEAD in shame.
911 was God's GENTLE wake up call.
God help us all when the NEXT call comes.
We are, as a nation, TOO STUPID TO REPENT.
I have been warning along with our national security experts for some time, God is going to have to take us out to a NUCLEAR WOODSHED.
God Himself is going to send Patriarchal Muslim men to America to drop nuclear bombs in its cities and FORCE US to repent of our wicked ways.
This has nothing to do with me or anyone I know.
I just understand scriptural principles and God's Judgement and God's viewpoint when it comes to sin.
God is far less concerned about our physical lives than He is about our spiritual condition and our eternal destination.
America is COMMITTING CRIMES AGAINS THE JUDGE OF THE ENTIRE EARTH and at some point 'HERE COMES THE JUDGE' as the old song goes, applies.
WAKE UP AMERICA...BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!
john....
I stand corrected concerning the definition of 'pedophilia'.....my point was/is....I have no idea, nor does anyone else reading these blogs, what particular sexual bent belongs to Warren Jeffs...he may be a perfectly "normal", all American male...whatever that is....thing is...it makes no difference....it isn't, and it shouldn't be part of this discussion...for crying out loud the man is in jail!!!!
It would seem that between Dr. Walsh and Hugh McBride(in another thread), the issue of "the picture" should have been put to rest.....
Reality is, given the numbers of FLDS, there is a real probability that some portion of the adults will have deviant sexual inclinations...and I say 'deviant' in the sense of deviating from the 'typical'...not as a negative....
If it turns out, at any point in the future, that someone has a sexual proclivity, and acts on it, toward youngsters, I would expect, just as I would expect in any community, that the person be prosecuted and recieve both punishmment and treatment....
I would expect the same for parents molesting their children...if it is discovered, it should be handled as a crime.....And somehow, I don't think any of the FLDS take exception to those expectations....despite what some folks say, from what I have seen, I'm guessing that the typical FLDS parent is just as outraged by those kinds of behaviors as anyone else is....
And it doesn't mean they don't happen...they happen everywhere...and they are awful...and they are hard to discover...and they are hard to prosecute...and the FLDS community is no different than any other community...and shouldn't be treated as such.....
Sorry...I get going and ...anyway....COMMON SENSE needs to somehow take over......
john...
"adding a component to their local human service spectrum" is not creating a program. It is defining and adding, if necessary, the ability to help anyone leaving the FLDS with the help transitioning they need, to an existing program, or programs...
It is a compromise that makes sense....
Applying common sense, to me, means the screamers and zealots on either side need to take a back seat and let folks with calm minds come up with some livable middle ground.....
I don't know the folks...not in the FLDS, or the local and state folks...Willie struck me as being very angry at the situation, but also in good control, and friendly....he doesn't have the public image of apprehension that many of the FLDS seem to have...and he seems bright....to me he'd be someone who could sit in a group and actually work toward compromise.....
And I could be all wrong....the community knows its members...they know who amongst them is a leader....who amongst them can help bring this stupidity to an end....
just my two cents....
I'm not Pentecostal. But it is interesting that the Chicago group that has been leading the charge against Catholic pedophiles has turned first to Southern Baptists on their list of Evangelical targets.
Not Pentecostals.
Study the statistis. The incidence of pedophilia amongst Pentecostals is much lower than the average across America. That's why the group I mentioned above has targeted Southern Baptists and not Pentecostals. They know they'd be wasting their time amongst Pentecostals whereas Baptists are a feeding frenzy for peophilia across America. That's why those Soutern Baptists SEE pedophilia around every corner. Because THEY are infested with it. I've got an article from this group in Chicago at my block. I'd be happy to reprint it here for you if you wish.
Regarding Jeffs, this picture is TOTALLY DISCREDITED when you consider that, instead of prosecuting Jeffs for engaging in underage marriages himself, they prosecuted him for marrying 2 teenagers, a 14 year old girl to a 19 year old boy.
That alone disproves the 'lost boy' theory. Why didn't Jeffs the 'creepy old man' (nice sexist term) marry her himself instead of marrying her to a teenage boy? Why wasn't the teenage boy run off?
How on EARTH did marrying two teenagers become a CRIME in America?
A crime for which you get put on the Top 10 most wanted by the FBI right next to Osama bin Laden.
What has HAPPENED to America? in the 1930s, my Pentecostal grandfather preacher at the age of 22 was married to my grandmother when she was 14 with her parent's blessings and with the blessings of the state they lived in at the time. They had 10 children; my mother was the 4th of those children. And a long, happy marriage until death did them part.
Today in most states my Pentecostal grandfather preacher who helped more people in his lifetime than most people who have ever lived did and who had a HUGE funeral of people grieving over his loss would be a convicted and registered sex offender.
While sodomites are free to bugger each other with impunity.
While transvestites are lobbying for the right to choose which bathroom they want to use in public places despite their biological God given sex.
Where...just fill in the blank from the previous statistics above.
Feminists and GODLESS AND SPINELESS church leaders have ALMOST COMPLETELY DESTROYED AMERICA.
You will NOT LISTEN until the DAY AFTER THE NUCLEAR BOMBS HAVE DROPPED.
I am literally moving from Chicago the 3rd largest city in America to a smaller city because I fully expect that large mega cities in America will be UNDER TERRIBLE ATTACK AND SIEGE within the next several years because of America's sins. I've already made the arrangements and I'll be packing up in about 5 weeks.
The Bible has a verse that basically says that the wise still a problem coming and they HIDE THEMSELVES FROM IT.
That's why I'm getting out of Chicago, getting out of Dodge.
911 was just the beginning of America's Judgement.
I don't want to be in a big city when the NEXT SHOES start to drop.
For crying out loud, Regina. Common Sense is not a visitor that you entertain very often.
LOOK AT THE PICTURES. How many normal "all-American" males marry or sexually molest little girls?
Read the testimony by the Jessops. FLDS parents do NOT reject this behavior.
Your theory that molestation can be identified and reported and stopped is not realistic in a society that shows absolutely no evidence of being able to identify or condemn or STOP child abuse. The testimony of ex-members, as well as findings by some very good reporters, assert that the practice of pedophilia, as well as epebophilia is common.
Child abuse experts confirm that the incestuous and child marriage practices break down the barriers that mainstream society depends on to prevent child sexual abuse.
Then prove it in a court of law, womankine.
NOT the National Enquirer.
pat....I just reread your post and it is truly offensive.
And to promote trafficing of illegal pornography is probably itself an illegal act.
also, what is interesting, and key, to much discussion is Dr. Walsh's explaining the 'role' of 'prophet' in Mormonism....the fact that a prophet is not infallible and can, in fact, be wrong...and those aspects do not render him any less a prophet is something lots of folks have missed....
A member can believe in the exalted status of Mr. Jeffs and, at the same time, believe he is incorrect about particular teachings, or revelations.....
What I am reading is that each person is, ultimately, responsible for their own actions. And, each person, ultimately, is accountable to God. Not to Warren Jeffs, or any other human, for their choices.....
Sounds an awful lot like the way many of us live our lives....I have folks I kinda put 'above' others in terms of taking their advice, believing in their intelligence, etc....but in the end, I am responsible for my choices....and if I choose to believe in a higher power, I can also choose to believe I am accountable to that 'higher power', and not to any human......
more alike than different, methinks.......
I fully understand that child abuse must be proven in a court of law. It may also mean that our child abuse laws are not tough enough and need to be changed.
If sexual abuse is rampant among Baptists, then I support going after those who practice. However, there are a couple of major differences during the process of "going after them". The most important is that most keep themselves in the general stream of society, where abuse is more easily identified. The other is that enclaves, where these practices, dominate(as opposed to isolated incidents), have not yet been identified. At least, not to my knowledge. The mere fact that you can quote stats, indicates that we have something of a handle on it.
Fourteen-year-old brides may not have been as unusual during past history. But neither was the accepted treatment of children and women as chattel, who could be used and abused at will. And were.
SOME of us believe that those practices were a result of backwardness and a lack of understanding of the damage that could be visited on a child. To bring the notion of children and women as chattel, back into the 21st century, should never happen to children and only to women, if they have the opportunity for choice in the matter.
They did not prosecute Jeffs for merely marrying "two teens". They prosecuted him as accomplice to rape because he exerted overwhelming control over a fourteen-year-old and an adult male; ordering the male to repeatedly rape the girl.
From Wikipedia. A description of the FLDS "God on Earth; or "perfection":
"In July 2004, Warren Jeffs' nephew, Brent Jeffs, filed a lawsuit against him alleging that in the late 1980s his uncle sodomized him in the Salt Lake Valley compound then owned by the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS).
Brent Jeffs said he was five or six years old at the time, and that Warren Jeffs' brothers, also named in the lawsuit, watched and participated in the abuse. Two of Warren Jeffs' other nephews also made similar abuse claims against him. One of the alleged victims, Clayne Jeffs, committed suicide with a firearm after accusing Warren Jeffs of sexually assaulting him as a child."
"On November 7, 2007, the Washington County Attorney's Office released video of jailhouse conversations between Nephi and Warren Jeffs. In the videos Warren renounces his prophethood, claiming that God had told him that if he revealed that he was not the rightful prophet, and was a "wicked man", he would still gain a place in the telestial kingdom.[17] Jeffs also admits to what he calls, "immoral actions with a sister and a daughter" when he was 20 years old.[18] Other records show that while incarcerated, Jeffs tried to commit suicide by banging his head against the walls and trying to hang himself."
Who are you getting this nonsense from anyways? The discredited Jessop and Wall girls?
Wall's own mother is the one who pressured Jeff's into making that marriage recommendation.
Walls stayed married to the young man for 4 years. She only cried 'rape' when the Utah AG came to her and promised to make her a millionaire in exchange for her testimony.
That young lady has now had a child filed out of wedlock with a young man who is such a close relative to her that they cannot LEGALLY get married any place in the country.
Regarding Jeffs and the sodomy claims, apparently you're not aware of the following:
I think Warren Jeffs was wrong to kick out the lost boys. CPS should have gone after the FLDS for that.I think Warren Jeffs was wrong to excommicate some men and to reassign their wives and children ti simeone else.
I think the biggesy culprit was Warren Jeffs, but he is already in jail.
>>>Deb, the lost boys is a myth that has been proven over and over again on these Trib boards with tons of supporting links. In order to "produce" Lost Boys for the home that he runs for them that the federal government funds and pays Dr Dan Fisher rent, Dr Dan Fisher was written up publicly for having these WILD parties where liquor and lots of "loose women" were invited to attract the boys. That's why there was only 6 lost boys that were named in the suit against the UEP trust (settled out of court). Not the 400 to 1400 as claimed. Nobody has ever met or found these 400 to 1400 lost boys because they simply don't exist. Most of the "lost boys" that ever allowed themselves to be called "lost boys" now consider it to be a great insult because of Dr Dan Fisher. Even the attorney general of Utah distanced himself from Dr Dan after the "wild parties" with booze and "loose women" to attract the lost boys hit the news wires.
Re: Warren Jeffs, did you know he's in prison for marrying 2 teenagers? Seriously. And that they had him on the Top 10 Most Wanted in The World list right next to Osama?
The only thing that stopped and gave me pause about Warren was the accusation of him sexually abusing his 2 nephews Claine & Brent. I did research. Here are the facts as I know them:
1. Claine who killed himself was a drug addict whose girlfriend had left him and took his child. They got a shrink for him after his girlfriend left and then this "shrink" claims that they helped the boy recover "repressed memories." What really happened was that the family had left the FLDS voluntarily 10 years before. They didn't like the school dress code and so they blamed all their problems on the school principal at the time, Warren. Continued
2. While the remaining 1 of the 2 nephews that received these "recovered memories" while in therapy, Brent, still is suing Warren Jeffs in civil court, his remaining brother and sister still are faithful members of the FLDS.
Do you think that the 2 of them would still be faithful members of the FLDS if they believed there was any truth to Brent and Claine's "recovered repressed memories" while in therapy?
Don't say they're brainwashed. People get up and walk out of the FLDS every week of the year and on many days of many weeks of the year. It happens all the time. This nonsense of "captives" is the silliest thing.
>>>The bottom line is is that the UEP trust has 100 MILLION dollars in it and their are a handful of greedy people EVERYWHERE that will make ANY FALSE ALLEGATION possible to get their greedy hands on it knowing that the accused will oftentimes receive legal advice to just SETTLE OUT OF COURT.
But none of this stops so-called Feminists from
REPEATING
false allegations to the media.
But when they get to court, they BOMB.
And you will CONTINUE TO BOMB no matter HOW you change the statutes unless you also change the RULES OF EVIDENCE.
Basically, you'll have to say that NO EVIDENCE is enough to convict someone.
Good luck with that unless you finally do succeed in terming the USA into Nazi Germany.
You do know that it's a proven fact that the reason for Nazi Germany's brutality is a bunch of MASCULINE ALPHA MALES became homosexuals and took the reigns of power in Germany.
Completely separated from God, and humaneness in general, they proceed to rape, kill and then BURN everything that moved.
I've got the article citing the well researched book on the subject linked at my blog.
America is suicidal. America is destroying itself.
The statistics prove that when 'women and children were treated as chattel,' women and children received much better treatment than they do today.
Just go back and re-read the damning moral statistics of America.
The Feminist Experiment has been tried and its result is:
DISASTER.
I predict that the disaster will continue until the
DAY AFTER
the nuclear bombs have been dropped on American cities.
Then the few remaining living Feminists will 'rethink' their positions.
This isn't a scare tactic.
I'm moving because I know this is coming.
Proverbs 28:28 -
When the wicked rise, men hide themselves: but when they perish, the righteous increase.
Proverbs 22:3 -
A prudent man foreseeth the evil, and hideth himself: but the simple pass on, and are punished.
Romans 1:22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools.
Nice apologist for child abusers, johnlester.
And THAT's real separation from God and humanness.
I do not say that no evidence convicts someone. I support our courts and process and bow to the TX Supremes, if that is the end of the judicial road. I will, however, continue to work to try to protect children.
How much do YOU respect courts and evidence, if you continually try to 'splain away Warren Jeffs' conviction?
womankine, the reprehensible moral statistics of America that I've cited above so clearly demolish anything else that you have to say that you have to resort to ad hominem attacks upon me personally.
Regarding Jeff's convictions, I find it reprehensible that someone can be convicted in America for performing the wedding ceremony of 2 teenagers.
Many people believe that Jeff's convictions, only about 7 or 8 months old right now and in the process of being appealed, will be overturned on appeal when more rational judges instead of a locally inflamed jury that had read too many books written by SOBBING, HYSTERAL WOMEN render their verdict.
The Ultimate Judge is God. When you and I are standing around watching God judge Warren, if God declares Warren guilty of any crimes, then I will buy it.
I don't place much faith in man's law.
Never have, and never will.
And yet, with the little faith that I have in man's laws, in a community of 10,000+ people, I have never seen a people so hounded and yet proven of committing so little.
When they are scientifically studied, the pureness and cleaness of their lifestyles are revealed.
NO STDs.
The first clue that God gives us if sexual crimes are being committed is via STDs.
Fornicate. You'll likely eventually get STDS, herpes, etc.
Sodomize? you'll likely eventually get AIDS.
You can use condoms to reduce the risk of doing wrong. Better hope they don't break or otherwise fail.
But the FLDS? When tested in 1953, not 1 STD in the entire community.
That's God and Nature's Grade A stamp of moral approval.
It seems to me that you're an apologist for those that have been proven of bearing false testimony.
SOBBING, HYSTERICAL WOMEN
Think of Carolyn and Flora Jessop when you read this excerpt from page 101 of Ann Coulter's book
GODLESS: THE CHURCH OF LIBERALISM
"Finally, the Democrats hit on an ingenious strategy: They would
choose only messengers whom we're not allowed to reply to. That's why
all Democratic spokesmen these days are sobbing, hysterical women. You
can't respond to them because that would be questioning the
authenticity of their suffering. Liberals haven't changed the message,
just the messenger. All the most prominent liberal spokesmen are
people with "absolute moral authority"--Democrats with a dead husband,
a dead child, a wife who works at the CIA, a war record, a terminal
illness, or as a last resort, being on first-name basis with Nelson
Mandela. Like Oprah during Sweeps Week, liberals have come to rely
exclusively on people with sad stories to improve their Q rating.
They've become the "Lifetime" TV network of political parties.
Liberals prey on people at a time of extreme emotional vulnerability
and offer them fame and fortune to be that months purveyor of hate.
Victory goes to the most hysterical.
SPEAKING OF THE DEVIL...
http://www.jumpcut.com/view?id=7260BFEC91D011DB8CB35A856F9CC894
Let's see if we can link here...
SPEAKING OF THE DEVIL...
clidk here
Los Angeles Times Magazine/August 1, 2004
Jessop, meanwhile, has had her motives and methods questioned by government officials, journalists and other activists. "It's gotten nastier and nastier," complains Walker. Arizona Atty. Gen. Terry Goddard has said that the girls were in no danger of being reunited with their parents, suggesting that Jessop fanned their fears without reason. "She's really undermined the state," he told New Times, which accused Jessop of using the two runaways as "props in a media campaign," and described her as "misguided and devious."
Pennie Petersen, an anti-polygamy activist who grew up with Jessop, believes Jessop has been swept up in "the TV interviews, the fame and the glory," and that the Fawns became her "poster girls." "She loves the attention. She's craved it her whole life." According to Petersen, Jessop has alienated officials who could help her cause. "Nobody wants anything to do with Flora."
And the LA Times is one of the most liberal papers in the country...
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