Sunshine and the Safety Net Committee
A milestone was marked today at the Safety Net Committee meeting in Salt Lake City.
A reporter was able to attend the committee's meeting.
And it appears that future meetings will be open to the media as well.
Kirk Torgensen, chief deputy attorney in the Utah Attorney General's Office, agreed to get an official opinion but he told the group that under the state's Open Meeting Act it could not shut out the press or public.
''I think Mark [Shurtleff] would be very concernd about having this closed,'' he said.
For three years, I have quietly arguing that the Safety Net Committee's meetings should be open to the media. Based on past meeting notes, they appeared to be open to any one who showed up, from documentary film makers to academics and the curious.
But I was consistently and firmly told that committee members did not want the media to attend.
I had a problem with that. For one thing, the committee was previously funded by a federal grant: Your tax dollars. It drew participants from various government agencies and is focused on an issue of great public interest and concern. We the people have a right to know what the Safety Net Committee is doing.
But my schedule and the committee's meetings never coincided to allow me to push the issue.
Today they did. I attended the meeting and the committee engaged in a lively discussion of pros and cons of opening their meetings.
The way I read the law, there really wasn't much of an option, an opinion shared by Jeff Hunt, a Salt Lake attorney who often represents the media and whose firm operates a media hotline for reporters seeking help on access issues.
Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff has championed open government. His office has put together a great handbook on Utah's open meeting and open records laws.
Here is what the booklet says about who has to comply with the Open Meetings Act:
Any state administrative, advisory, executive or legislative body which:
1. Was created by the Utah Constitution, statute, rule or resolution
2. Consists of two or more persons
3. Spends, distributes or is supported by tax money
4. Has authority to make decisions about the public’s business
Check, check, check and check.
Utah lost the federal grant that supported the Safety Net's activities, but earlier this year the Utah Legislature approved a bill that set aside about $300,000 to form the ''Safety Net Initiative and task force.''
The money paid for a coordinator, Pat Merkley, who oversaw her first meeting today, and other expenses.
The law allows meetings to be closed under a short list of criteria, including discussions of litigation, real estate transactions, an individual's competence, and criminal investigations.
I doubt any of the criteria apply to the issues that come before the Safety Net Committee.
One reason for moving the committee out of the Utah Attorney General's Office, by the way, was to clearly separate its activities from the office's prosecutorial efforts. The committee is now housed within the Family Support Center in Midvale.
Some members were concerned that people would be reluctant to attend or share their personal stories at the meetings if the media attends but that does not exempt the committee from complying with Utah law. And there are ways to deal with sensitive testimony, such as having a person use only a first name.
But none of that gets at the really important reason, in my view, for the media's presence at the Safety Net Committee's meetings: To inform and educate the public about its activities and the services it offers.
The media can do a lot to help the committee fulfill its mission, which says:
"The Safety Net Committee brings together government agencies, nonprofit organizations and interested individuals who are working to open up communication, break down barriers and coordinate efforts to give people associated with the practice of polygamy equal access to justice, safety and services."
That statement may get tweaked under Merkley's new leadership. So might the group's name.
At today's meeting members TENTATIVELY gave their approval to change the group’s name to the Safety Net Coalition. That proposal will now be presented to other committee members in southern Utah.
The committee also voted to create a ''charter task force'' to come up with operating procedures and a ''branding task force'' to review goals, guiding principles and mission.
And finally it created a list of priorities, as yet unranked, to guide Merkley's first months in her new capacity. They are:
Review and revamp The Primer, a guide to Utah's polygamous groups and their beliefs and practices
Create a Web site that lists available resources and contacts
Raise funds for service providers such as New Frontiers for Families, which is struggling to keep a homeless shelter for teens afloat in St. George
Create a procedure/safety plan that oultines available services and steps to follow in helping families leave polygamous communities
Create a new brochure for the committee
Focus on cultural training
There. A little light. That wasn't so bad, was it?
A reporter was able to attend the committee's meeting.
And it appears that future meetings will be open to the media as well.
Kirk Torgensen, chief deputy attorney in the Utah Attorney General's Office, agreed to get an official opinion but he told the group that under the state's Open Meeting Act it could not shut out the press or public.
''I think Mark [Shurtleff] would be very concernd about having this closed,'' he said.
For three years, I have quietly arguing that the Safety Net Committee's meetings should be open to the media. Based on past meeting notes, they appeared to be open to any one who showed up, from documentary film makers to academics and the curious.
But I was consistently and firmly told that committee members did not want the media to attend.
I had a problem with that. For one thing, the committee was previously funded by a federal grant: Your tax dollars. It drew participants from various government agencies and is focused on an issue of great public interest and concern. We the people have a right to know what the Safety Net Committee is doing.
But my schedule and the committee's meetings never coincided to allow me to push the issue.
Today they did. I attended the meeting and the committee engaged in a lively discussion of pros and cons of opening their meetings.
The way I read the law, there really wasn't much of an option, an opinion shared by Jeff Hunt, a Salt Lake attorney who often represents the media and whose firm operates a media hotline for reporters seeking help on access issues.
Utah Attorney General Mark Shurtleff has championed open government. His office has put together a great handbook on Utah's open meeting and open records laws.
Here is what the booklet says about who has to comply with the Open Meetings Act:
Any state administrative, advisory, executive or legislative body which:
1. Was created by the Utah Constitution, statute, rule or resolution
2. Consists of two or more persons
3. Spends, distributes or is supported by tax money
4. Has authority to make decisions about the public’s business
Check, check, check and check.
Utah lost the federal grant that supported the Safety Net's activities, but earlier this year the Utah Legislature approved a bill that set aside about $300,000 to form the ''Safety Net Initiative and task force.''
The money paid for a coordinator, Pat Merkley, who oversaw her first meeting today, and other expenses.
The law allows meetings to be closed under a short list of criteria, including discussions of litigation, real estate transactions, an individual's competence, and criminal investigations.
I doubt any of the criteria apply to the issues that come before the Safety Net Committee.
One reason for moving the committee out of the Utah Attorney General's Office, by the way, was to clearly separate its activities from the office's prosecutorial efforts. The committee is now housed within the Family Support Center in Midvale.
Some members were concerned that people would be reluctant to attend or share their personal stories at the meetings if the media attends but that does not exempt the committee from complying with Utah law. And there are ways to deal with sensitive testimony, such as having a person use only a first name.
But none of that gets at the really important reason, in my view, for the media's presence at the Safety Net Committee's meetings: To inform and educate the public about its activities and the services it offers.
The media can do a lot to help the committee fulfill its mission, which says:
"The Safety Net Committee brings together government agencies, nonprofit organizations and interested individuals who are working to open up communication, break down barriers and coordinate efforts to give people associated with the practice of polygamy equal access to justice, safety and services."
That statement may get tweaked under Merkley's new leadership. So might the group's name.
At today's meeting members TENTATIVELY gave their approval to change the group’s name to the Safety Net Coalition. That proposal will now be presented to other committee members in southern Utah.
The committee also voted to create a ''charter task force'' to come up with operating procedures and a ''branding task force'' to review goals, guiding principles and mission.
And finally it created a list of priorities, as yet unranked, to guide Merkley's first months in her new capacity. They are:
Review and revamp The Primer, a guide to Utah's polygamous groups and their beliefs and practices
Create a Web site that lists available resources and contacts
Raise funds for service providers such as New Frontiers for Families, which is struggling to keep a homeless shelter for teens afloat in St. George
Create a procedure/safety plan that oultines available services and steps to follow in helping families leave polygamous communities
Create a new brochure for the committee
Focus on cultural training
There. A little light. That wasn't so bad, was it?
135 Comments:
Good news! Maybe we're finally going to see some long-term funding in Utah for victims of polygamy. BRAVO! Go, Utah, go!
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
victms? i'm proud to be a plyg and i am not a victim
Great to see my tax dollars are being wasted on this. What a big crock "Safety Net." Even the name itself is a loaded propaganda device to demonize polygamists. And all that money their spending for committees and bureacracy? Read carefully, they spend hours in committee debating which words to use for maximum anti-FLDS propagandistic effect. This is communism folks. And we the stupid tax payers are forced to pay the way to the destruction of religious freedom.
"Review and revamp The Primer, a guide to Utah's polygamous groups and their beliefs and practices"
This should be interesting when completed! Does the Utah Bar use it for training attorneys?
To laurie, I'd like to say that there are not "victims of polygamy." There are however, victims of domestic violence and abuse. Please don't confuse the two.
To ztgstmv, all I have to say is maybe you should attend a meeting to see that we don't spend our time to develop schemes for "maximum anti-FLDS propagandistic effect." Many of the people there actually do want to help.
Penelope,
What are the proposed changes for "The Primer"?
kpb -
No specific changes were proposed at the meeting. It is something that still needs to be discussed.
Thanks
I anticipated there would be changes in mind of some sort anytime a finished product is to be altered.
I agree (somewhat) with Alice and disagree (somewhat) with Laurie.
Both the male and female members of a bigamous marriage are committing a crime, so Alice is correct in saying that she is not a victim.
Where Laurie is correct is in talking about the underage girls, who are not of the age of consent, that are married in a bigamous relationship - those are victims.
The rest are criminals.
ztg, et al...
My instant reaction about the name was the same as you....
There is an implied negative. If the group was specifically to address victims of domestic violence and abuse, no matter where they hail from, it's a great name...
On the other hand, since it has a broad scope of issues, and it is specifically addressing those issues as they apply to the polygenous communities, I woud think a more neutral name is more appropriate.
There is nothing, what so ever, about polygamy, in and of itself, that is 'unsafe'. It may be illegal, but that is a created dichotomy, not an inevitable result. Danger, which the word 'safety' implies exists, is nothing more than a response to the hype and hyperbole of the professional victim's rants. If the intent of this committee is to move away from the craziness and sensationalism and get down to reality, then if I were participating, I would want to see a name not loaded with negative implications.
Something like, "Celebrating Our Diversity, Assuring Our Well Being", and simply refer to it in everyday terms like the 'diversity committee' or the 'diversity group'..... It takes away the smack of negativity and makes it more inviting to open, cross-cultural dialogue.....and it is an easy segue into issues like building cultural awareness and cultural competencies....
You could, as a group, create a wonderful, short mission statement that would invite, not discourage, participation and respect.
And maybe, just maybe, the group could take the wind out of the sails of folks like Laurie & Co., who are such polarizing figures. Maybe, just maybe, instead of saying things like 'funding for victims', you could talk about 'funding to facillitate choice and stability'.
I know, bluesman will reiterate, I'm an outsider, and I don't count...on the other hand, in this instance, he is also an outsider! And I'm just throwing my two cents in as food for thought...not trying to tell anyone how to operate...
I do think that this group has the potential for being a wonderful catalyst for change, and perhaps Texas might want to follow the example of engaging in dialogue instead of storm trooper tactics...it tends to get folks a lot further, faster....
And Brooke, Thank you, once again, for shedding light!
Sounds to me Pat Merkley will be well suited for the Job she is undertaking.
This is a story on who she is.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4188/is_20080610/ai_n25506226
Based on a reader email, I should clarify that the person at the Safety Net meeting who raised concerns about the media was an advocate, not a fundamentalist. The fundamentalist Mormons were all in favor of the media of attending the committee's meetings.
Also, I was asked if the FLDS were present. They were not, though a representative regularly attends Safety Net meetings in southern Utah.
kbp - My first reaction to THE PRIMER was, what is this manual's primary goal? Is the primary goal to help polygamists transition into mainstream, or is the primary goal to help outsiders transition into polygamy? LOL Anyway, I made a few suggestions for the rewrite...
I'm glad they moved the Safety Net operation away from the AGs office to avoid future conflicts of interest. Change is moving along along nicely in Utah.
alice - you have Stockholm Syndrome.
penelope - polygamy and domestic violence and abuse are one in the same.
rericson said - "There is nothing, what so ever, about polygamy, in and of itself, that is 'unsafe'." I was raised in polygamy, what is your expertise? And then your goofy comment, "And maybe, just maybe, the group could take the wind out of the sails of folks like Laurie & Co., who are such polarizing figures." LOL Who do you think put the wind in their sails in the first place?
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
Not all flds girls are married young. In fact, it is extremely rare. 16 is a legal age is it not? Way back 70 years or so ago, people got married younger than that but I don't see it happen any more.
Laurie, Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe you were raised in an offshoot group known for it's violence and abberant behaviors. Your group's behaviors are not the norm in any other fundamentalist group, at least that I am aware of. To apply the horrors you grew up in to the entire population of folks practicing the Principle is not only unfair, but it creates wrongful beliefs and stigmatizes them all.
You may very well have been part of the early drive to form the group, however, it iseems clear that the goals of the group have outgrown you. Perhaps you could attempt to come up to speed, or, like many other things in history, get left in the past where your anger and divisivness belong.
Laurie, perhaps rather than accusing Alice of Stockholm Syndrome, you might try to recognize your own tunnel vision. Tunnel vision has a nasty way of distorting the truth.
Regina,
Your opinion doesn't matter in Texas. I have no basis to object to it in Utah, and they are also free to ignore my opinion there.
I sort of like your idea for a new name to more appropriately identify the group, but have a suggestion to make it more accurate...
How about 'Celebrating all our citizens that believe in committing felonies,' so you could also include the drug-addicts and burglars that need help.
laurie, it sounds like we need Pliggy to inform you of a few things. I was born and raised in flds and i love it. i have always been happy even if you can't see why.
Laurie:
Keep your dukes up. You're not alone.
by the way laurie, my ancestors came from Stockholm Sweden so thank you very much ;}
Alice:
I'd like to hear a little more about what worked well for you in polygamy, and in the FLDS in particular. I'd like to understand it, and specifics always help me to understand. Many, many thanks.
silver, no problem. all that they teach us here is to be good and that there is more to life than growing up just selfishly. we are taught to love one another no matter what. it really is simple if you understand it. my father had more than one wife and i loved all my mothers. it's a together effort in loving. the reason that so many people shun flds is because they have gone to apostates for info. the ones that have been so bitter, flora jessop, carolyn jessop, and dan ficsher really were abused but guess what! their fathers are apostate now because of their abuse to their children. that doesn't mean everyne is abused. and as far as a marriage goes, the girl is never forced, believe me, i know, i was there once. she may get pressure from har parents to get married but it is 100% her choice. same goes for the man.
the reason why those men are apostate is because their families were taken away and given to someone who would not be abusive to them. those families could have gone away with the abusive father but they believed thier prophet would seal them to a righteous man.
Why is it I anticipate we'll soon be able to read here why some are victims and they are just not aware of it yet?
;)
they aren't victims. they are children of parents who believe truth. you can believe it or not. i have been through both sides and i know what i want. by the way, i dont have a job but i do have a very supportive husband that is NOT the least bit abusive. how is that being a victim?
laurie-
Polygamy and abuse are NOT the same thing. Good grief. I can't understand where such a complete lack of understanding comes from. If you were abused in a polygamous setting, then I am deeply sorry for what you went through. However, there actually are people who have good experiences in polygamy and LOVE living that way....whether you believe it or not.
Thank you Alice. Could you bring some light to Elissa Wall's story? She writes that she asked of the Prophet over and over not to marry the man that was chosen for her, but that her requests were ignored.
Also, would you be willing to share a little more about your situation with me? (I realize this conversation is not private. But I rarely get a chance to talk to someone in your situation.) Are you presently a practicing member of the FLDS? Do you anticipate being a co-wife at some point? Thanks, I do appreciate it.
silver, i really did not know elissa wall personally but i knew of her. i know that her "dad" was very abusive and i can see why she would not want it. i do not believe for one second that she was forced to marry her older cousin. i personally think she didn't want to end up with a sister-wife because there was not love in her home growing up. (by the way, her dad no longer has a family. they are happier where they are now than they were then.)make sense?
If I am not mistaken, Laurie Allen, creator of the totally factual and unbiased FLDS documentary "Banking on Heaven", was on the notorious ex-flds "escapee" list that someone posted. From what I understand, she is a former member of the Lebaron group-blood atonement practictioners "extradordinaire". I believe she said her uncle was the infamous Evril Lebaron. Could I be wrong or is that "escapee" list perhaps be a tad inaccurate?
I just watched the trailer to "Banking on Heaven." During it I was under the impression that Laurie Allen was sent to live with the FLDS after she was orphaned at the age of three. I then read her bio (on the same site) and learned that she really was with the LeBaron's. She is confusing two completely separate groups with her "documentary." From what I know of the FLDS and the LeBarons, pretty much the only thing they have in common is the belief in plural marriage.
i don't know much of the lebarons. they were before my time.
if there is abuse in the flds, i don't know of it. as for me in my situation, you could never convince me that i was abused. i remember one time that i got spanked for wasting my cold cereal. other than that, when i was naughty, all a got was a talkin' to. even in my teenage years, i was a little s., and never was i abused for it. my father loved me through every experience until i WANTED to be a good person. and it just made me love him all the more. so what am i? a victim of love? wow thats hard to find anymore isn't it?
This post has been removed by the author.
by the way laurie, my ancestors came from Stockholm Sweden so thank you very much
That was a good one Alice! LOL!
Time and time again I've seen "mainstream" posters get owned by "brainwashed" FLDS women. Often these judgemental types resort to comments like "Well, you are living a criminal lifestyle-so there!". It must be really embarrassing to them.
I don't believe for one moment that Alice is a FLDS woman. FLDS don't allow their women on computers and certainly not to mingle with heathen Gentiles. Alice is an FLDS dude! A plant. Look at all his "FLDS are perfect" posts.
And the rest of those falling all over every sacred word of Alice are also a bunch of FLDS plants. The annointed that got appointed to sit and watch the internet as part of their campaign to change public opinion of the FLDS.
I mean, puhleeze, statements like "I've never seen abuse" or "I was brought up in total love" and stuff like "FLDS gets rid of those that abused their families." C'mon, this sounds like deliberate and planned campaigning, not truth.
Yeah right, it has all been lies for the past 70 years. Bah!
penelope - some slaves had good experiences, but that's not a reason to tolerate slavery.
alice - I'm glad your husband doesn't abuse you.
silver - I still raise 'em high when I have to, but it's rarely necessary these days. The public focus has shifted from religious persecution to the real problem, and that problem is a culture that enforces absolute mind control on its offspring.
rericson - my mother was a LeBaron, but not a member of The Church of the Lamb of God, Ervil LeBaron's murderous group. And sure there are differences between the polygamous sects, but their core beliefs and practices are the same. They all read the same books.
Enslaving women and children is the name of the polygamy game.
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
laurie - trying to compare polygamy and slavery is like trying to compare airplanes to salad. It makes no sense. There are people out there who practice polygamy because they believe that GOD wants them too. There may be some who are doing it for the wrong reasons and for the thrill of the supposed power, but they are, by far, the minority.
And your attempted logic in using the statement that "they all read the same books" to try to prove that they are all the same does not work. By that logic, every religion that uses the bible would be considered the "same" and we all know that that is not true.
llorona:
Since I am not an FLDS plant, your assertion that those people "falling all over every sacred word" of another poster makes me question the value of your other assertions. But that is beside the point.
It is the norm for 2 parties in opposition to describe their mutual situation as if they were living on different planets. Only once have I ever experienced 2different parties describing the same phenomenon. (At the risk of writing a Reginaesque post, that was an armed assault on a pizza delivery man who was 7 minutes late. They both agreed on the narrative. But one party felt he had been victimized by the assault, and the other party felt that armed reaction was a normal and rational thing to do when a pizza was 7 minutes late.)
So while the extremely different stories being told on this blog about the "same" situation is mysterious, it is not unusual. To make a long story short, I consider it my job to understand things I don't like. And I don't like polygamy. That's why I am asking the questions.
Polyg doesn't bother me at all. I think it is beautiful for those that it works for and I believe it is not for all.
But I still believe Alice is a male FLDS plant along with other FLDS doing their PR work to clean up public opinion of the FLDS just like websites that have their McCain or BHO supporters blogging like hell.
Blues said: "Your opinion doesn't matter in Texas. I have no basis to object to it in Utah, and they are also free to ignore my opinion there."
So what about the opinions of the FLDS members who are residents of Texas? Does their opinion count in Texas? Or is it like it is in Utah where if you're not a member of Mark Shurtleff's church then you're suspect. So do you have to be a bigoted Baptist attorney from Dallas in order for your opinion to count in Texass?
llorona,
You couldn't be more wrong about so many of the things you are saying.
FLDS women get online and use the internet everyday.
And they are not "banned" from having friendships outside of the FLDS community. Although I am sure they are cautioned to take great care when forming outside friendships, it is not something that would ever be forbidden. Over the course of the last few months I have had lengthy conversations, both online and over the phone with several members of the FLDS. As a result of those conversations we are forming friendships. And you couldn't find anyone further removed from Fundamental Mormonism than I am.
Laurie, all of Mormonism read the same books. You may be a lovely person in real life, however, every single time I have seen you come on these blogs you have been stirring crap. Every single time. And you have never once had anything but negative and condemning comments. You are not looking for solutions, you are thriving on controversy and divisivness.
Silver, you don't have to agree with, or even like different folks beliefs or practices to treat people respectfully, and you have demonstarted that time and time again. I, for one, appreciate that. It makes it much easier to have a discussion rather than a peeing contest.
"FLDS don't allow their women on computers..."
...and Malonis is still uncertain if it was Teresa that sent all those emails.
Just something else to investigate, along with that missing child. ;)
penelope - airplanes and salad? that's pretty goofy
One difference with the LeBarons is they breed with Mexicans. Or should I say Lamanites? Habla español? So the LeBarons are not as racist as other fundamentalist Mormon polygamists who are racist to the core.
How many black fundie Mormon polygamists have you met lately? Asians? Hispanics?
Watching the Republican National Convention is like driving through Colorado City...everybody's lilly white. How scary is that?!
BANKING ON HEAVEN
Rercision, I am not convinced. We all saw those Stepford-Wife-Robot-Women on TV over and over. Many of us have seen them and how they act for years now in person.
They do not willfully socialize with us heathens. They don't pee without permission of the select few. That is why it has been topsy turvey when the new regime of Gestapo Warren took over. Wake up.
Why do you think the YFZ ranch was built to begin with? Why do you think their kids were pulled out of school all at once? Why do you think so many left the FLDS and lawsuits started flying all of a sudden? Yup, Uncle Dirty Old Man Warren and his Gestapo came to town and changed it all around.
Now they are ordered to go on this PR campaign and I believe the internet is a big part of that PR campaign, and it is quite obvious that all these "FLDS is wonderful posts" are a bunch of FLDS male plants posting with female names like "Alice" and other followers agreeing with their posts.
There are only a few on here that are not FLDS plants. If I am wrong, this is the biggest pro-FLDS website I have seen(including their own website)! All propoganda.
This post has been removed by the author.
I know, Laura, it's hard to control myself from LMFAO too!
I had to delete my last post because I forgot to put rericsons comment in quotes...
rericson said, "And they are not "banned" from having friendships outside of the FLDS community. Although I am sure they are cautioned to take great care when forming outside friendships, it is not something that would ever be forbidden. Over the course of the last few months I have had lengthy conversations, both online and over the phone with several members of the FLDS. As a result of those conversations we are forming friendships."
ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!!!
llorona - I know, it boggles the mind, but I do believe rericson wants to help, and if she's talking to some of the YFZ women, that's a good thing. Go, rericson, go!
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
Yes, laurie, I know it's goofy. That was the point.
llorona ,
I think one of the things that makes this particular blog exceptional is the blog owner, Brooke Adams. I certainly don't know her personally, only through her reporting, but what that says to all of us is a very clear message; "Believe what you want, but recognize the humanity of everyone. And behave respectfully, even if you don't agree or ascribe to the belief."
Because Brooke consistently posts blogs that humanize the 'players', on all the sides, it has allowed lots of good discussion to flow on this site.
And learning. I think we have all learned about each other, here. Even our resident nasties..bluesman and Ron....
And Laurie...there was a time when throwing down the 'racist' flag meant the battle was on. However, again because of this forum really having an inner core of good discussion, we've moved way, weay past that. We understand that we all use that word differently. We understand that it isn't about race, rather familial lines....and that the bottom line is treating people with respect...
So no, this isn't a pro or con anything site, but it is a site where there are enough regular participants to keep the talk flowing and, for the most part civil...and thyere are frequently FLDS members participating who are willing to discuss and answer questions....
Oops...I almost forgot..
I wanted to say something about what someone referred to as "robot demeanor" of the FLDS women when we saw them on television.
I also, at first, thought it was stilted and 'robot like'....then I thought about it and realized, "holy cow! these women have all just had their lives ripped apart. everyone of them has had her children taken. All of their husbands are under suspicion. They all remember the stories of 1953. their homes are empty and their posessions strewn about."
and I realized that the quiet, almost sing-song way of speaking was a coping mechanism. If you are focusedon keeping your voice at a certain level and a certain cadence to your words and a fairly blank expression on your face, well then you can keep yourself from bursting into tears everytime you think about what has happened.
Remember, these are very, very private people. No matter what the reasons for that privacy, they are private. And all of a sudden the entire world is looking at you and many are thinking you are a terrible person and many are thinking that all the men are perverts and all the women abuse their children and now you're on national television trying to show the world that your home is a good home and you are a good mother...all the while people you don't know, and don't trust, have your children...
I think I might come across as a robot under those conditions, too.....
I mean think about how scary those days had to have been for those women!!!
Oh, I believe Rercision wants to help too and I believe Recersion is a wonderful person. I just don't believe these FLDS women are true friends of Recersion or ever going to be. They need her right now just like they need Brooke in this PR machine. And you can bet certain ones were picked by the select few just like the certain ones that were picked to appear on TV over and over. Or didn't y'all notice that not just any FLDS woman was allowed to speak to the media or appear on TV. It was always the same six or eight ones. And they were so programmed on what to say no matter what was asked.
rericson,
I've been giving you the benefit of doubt, but the more I read your comments, the more I suspect you're an FLDS mole.
I'm willing to bet that you're the guy Seth talks about in my film, the guy FLDS leaders sent to psychiatry school so they can legally commit women who are rebellious.
That photo also makes you suspect. I think you're a man, an FLDS mole. You use FLDS reasoning in your comments, like..."WE understand that WE all use that word differently. WE understand that it isn't about race, rather familial lines....and that the bottom line is treating people with respect.."
Whi is "WE", darlin'? You got a mouse in your pocket? Racism is racism, and you're a polygamist mole.
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
Alice is an FLDS dude, not a female. Just go back and read all his posts and no other posts, just Alice. It is so obvious he is an FLDS plant.
No Laurie. Men would never take 500+ sentences to get one point across. There are not enough hours in the day to read Rericson's post! Men are not that verbal (well, nobody is). They just say it.
Laurie,
If you checked in a bit more frequently, or actually bothered to go to my blog, you'd see exactly who I am....unfortunately I haven't been posting much, but it gives a clearer picture of who I am, where I come from, and what my life is....
and speaking in the "we" is because in some ways, this blog has become a 'community'...there is a sense of 'we' amongst the regulars...even if 'we' don't all agree on all things...
So chill out and try a little harder to look toward the future instead of staying focused on the past....
"I think I might come across as a robot under those conditions"
Rericon, I am not talking about "those conditions." I guess you missed my post where I mentioned that we have seen and been around these FLDS women for years, not just since this Texas thang. In other words ask any Gentile around St. George and/or Short Creek area who are also from that same area or lived in that area. Polyg women do not socialize or even acknowledge outsiders. They turn their heads to avoid eye contact. When they must talk (like in checkout stands at Walmart, food stamp office, etc.), they are programed Stepford Wife Robots.
And no matter how much you help and no matter how friendly they are with you, they will never, ever be your BFF.
llorona,
Is it possible that there demeanor that you describe is because of fear and hostilities on both sides?
Maybe because a giant billboard going into town basically proclaims them as folks to escape from....
Is it possible that the closed down demeanor is defensive?
Whether communicating with me is genuine or not, and I have no reason to believe it is anything but genuine, it has been nice.
there is no propaganda...we've talked about exchanging recipes and our family vacations and back to school days...and silly little things...how we got our names...
And you know what...I could live my whole life without this...and they certainly could live their entire lives without me...it's a fluke of history or whatever that I ever stumbled on this site..that any of us ever met....
but more often than not, that is how some of my best and dearest friends have come to be in my life...just by fluke...
I have occasion to be in Amish and Mennonite country, frequently, and am active in some outreach initiatives in that area...and to strangers, many of them seem stand offish and odd...but when you say 'hello' with a smile, you get a smile back...and if you say 'hello' two days in a row with a smile, there's a really good chance on the third day they'll say 'hello' first...
folks who are stared at and written about and all sorts of things tend to become wary...and have a public face they put on....
or maybe I'm just crazy enough that no one bothers with the 'public face', I don't know...and I don't care...
I just really, really enjoy people and learning about different cultures and ways of living...I think it is exciting and all of it contributes to this amazing quilt that is America....
No Recision. As many other posts have already mentioned, their demeanor is because they are private and want to be left alone. And no, because I am talking about before all this billboard escape business. Before Gestapo Warren. Recision, have you forgotton the many posts mentioning how they do not like to draw attention to themselves and they never did until Gestapo Warren took control and he started up with his new rules, getting rid of faithful, dividing families, pulling the kids out of school, kicking some out of life-long homes they built, etc., etc. This is when all this billboard escape stuff started happening. They had many peaceful years after the 1953 until Gestapo Warren ruined it all.
Cheese,
Yes, their opinion counts, but it doesn't allow them to violate the law. Most criminals see themselves as the 'victim' of the system, police oppression, you name it.
I don't know about Shurtleff's thoughts, you'll have to ask him.
I assume that the 'bigoted Baptist attorney' is a shot at me, which is about as accurate as your other posts. I'm not bigoted, and I'm not Baptist. My religious beliefs have been posted (try reading them), but they have no bearing on my thoughts on the crimes committed by some of the FLDS members.
BTW, are you still looking for evidence of underage marriages?
Regina,
You mean that the women of the FLDS were victimized? That they were in shock over what happened and the response of some of the public? Was it anything like what a rape victim would feel if they were publicly attacked in the local paper? Told that their judgment was lacking and it was their fault?
Laurie,
No, Regina is not an FLDS plant or mole. She is a so-called Family Advocate from Pennsylvania. You might want to read this for more insight on her.
The FLDS cannot be compared to the Amish or Menonites. The FLDS brought their own troubles and they have themselves to thank for it. They brought attention on themselves with old men having sex with underage girls, by hanging a photo in every single room of their homes or dorms of a convicted pedophile (Warren) for little kids to worship, by using public school funds to buy private jets and such, by child neglect (lost boys), by free/slave labor of members, by reassigning women and their children, on and on. Just the term "reassigning" women brings bad attention. We have a slavery act in this country.
I think it is very insulting to compare them to honest, hardworking people like the Amish who have no problem getting along with their surroundings and never did, and who have a 90 percent retention of their members after Rumspringa.
C'mon, R, I know you can see the difference between apples and oranges.
Funny how Alice disappeared. Busted!
You have been saying that FLDS kicks out men who are abusive?
I would like to know why men who are abusive arent turned over to Police?
If these men are so bad, they should be punished legally.
llorona- good observations! If rericson isn't an FLDS mole, then perhaps she's using a psychological technique to lure unsuspecting FLDS women...
I don't have time to read alice's posts, but I believe you (cuz i c yer smart). The FLDS is quite the PR machine these days...'cept Willie Jessop who's a slimeball.
rericson - okay, if you're not a mole, then quit the preachie holier-than-thou psycho-babble bullcrap. You came on this blog when I posted Brooke's link in the Denver post, so who's the newbie, silly. You've made some good points, but telling an x-polygamist their clueless about polygamists is, well...okay, I'll be nice.
Any outside contact an FLDS woman has is a step in the right direction, but llorona's right, you're being used by the ever clever Fundie Rattle Day Snakes.
BOH
I don't understand why, or for what purpose, you folks come to a blog like this to be so angry and negative.
Clearly you aren't going to change anyones minds. And you think you already know everything so you're not open to new ideas.
And for some of you, whenever you are feeling particularly testy you launch into ad hominem attacks....
So what purpose does your presence bring?
Do you get some sort of perverse pleasure out of being mean spirited and vitriolic? Do you like knowing that you are hurting people that read your meanness and know it is them you are referring to?
Tell me, because I really don't understand......
Silver and others come here because they genuinely seem to want to understand, to learn about the culture, to shape their thinking from more than just the sensationalism available everywhere....
But I am truly befuddled at why some of you come to do nothing but bash....
Oh save it, R. That tone won't work and you know it. We have both complimented you many times now.
Otherwise, I really enjoy you and your input. (Oops! see that? Another compliment).
Laurie, I have never in a gazillion years looked at the Denver Post. I have been posting and reading this blog for over two years, now...
Get a life, then maybe you won't be so hell bent on destroying others. Try behaving with a little respect and a "do unto others..." and folks might actually be willing to have a conversation with you.
And I have no idea what you have experienced. I can only speak to my own experience. and thus far, I have been treated, albeit cautiously, very respectfully and nicely.
And I do have a great deal of experience in developing cultural competencies and understanding different cultures.....
And, despite what any of you naysayers spout, I happen to like the people I have met...which is just an added bonus...
I believe we each have the right to choose our beliefs and no one has the right to infringe on that....
And I believe I have an obligation to try and understand what makes a person tick if I am going to render an opinion on that person...
And I am not going to rely on the words of the disenfranchised from any group for my information....what they have to offer is, by definition, severely biased...and I persoanally have a preference for objective observations and knowledge as well as personal experience.
rericson
Im not angry, nor have I been. I told you from the begining, I deal in facts, not emotions.
This topic about the Safety Net, which Utah needs, since it has the largest number of polygamists.
I to beleive it should be open to media or public.
and by the by...I'm sorry you think I sound "preachy"....my ex always accused me of being a ranting heathen...
Perhaps my passion comes through in this kind of forum. I wasn't aware of that...I always think this kind of communication is so limited. That is probably why I am so "wordy". I want to be clear and unambiguous in conveying my thoughts.
But what you'see' is who I am. I make no appologies.
I try very hard to understand the whole picture, without losing the small nuances...and I have found in doing that, I have often been able to find middle ground on issues that folks thought irreconcilible(sp?).
I have also found that focusing on the past generally does not serve anyone well. Sonmetimes the hurts and angers are too deep and too raw. By orienting oneself to the future, one can allow some natural healing time. And in working toward change for the future, old enemies can often become allies.....
actually, i haven't disappeared thank you. i just got busy. and yes i am a flds woman but i quite enjoy your thinking i'm not.
That's a bunch of hooey, Mr. Freethinker.
This is alice. sorry i had to switch to a different computer. an flds plant? does that grow berries?
you who!!!! llorona? funny that you just disappeared.
Angry? Who's angry? I couldn't be happier about the shift in public sentiment...not to mention what's going on in Texas, the Congress, and now Utah. Yaaay!!!
Hell, I'm cracking open that bottle of Don Perignon I've been saving. Hmm, I'd invite rericson but she's too judgmental.
Hey, lloronaaaaa! Come on over!
llorona, I know you may not understand it, but people actually have a right to be programmed any way they want. You have a right to be programmed by leftists at some Ivy league university. The FLDS women have a right to be programmed by their elders. The brain is a programmable device, like a computer disk. Once you understand this, perhaps you'll see how you too are programmed in some fashion, whether you allowed yourself to be programmed or someone else compelled you to be programmed, perhaps your parents, your peers, your pastor, or your president. Either way, we're all programmed to the fullest extent possible. And no programming is inherently superior to the next.
ztgstmv said...""""""""
That's the funniest post I've ever read! ROTFLMAO!!!!!!!!!! Hilarious!
Hey Ziggy - if you can program Street and JL to be quiet, I'll start believing the other stuff you say...
Laurie and Bluesman, Ziggy has a point. We are the product of our environment and social conditioning. Who is to say that one culture is superior to another. Laurie Allen grew up in the plyg lifestyle, the only way for her to overcome the fear that her theological teachings were in fact correct and therefore, she is destined for hell, is for her to trash and discredit as much as possible, the beliefs that she grew up with, this is common with apostates from any religion.
ztgstmv said:
"And no programming is inherently superior to the next."
Aside from the evil consequences of that perspective, what is the practical motivation of sticking with the deprivations demanded by the FLDS if that is true?
(And PS, I didn't believe you really believed what you just wrote, until I tried 3 times to spell your handle. The I realized you really do believe all programming to be of equal value...)
...brainwashed, uneducated teen slaves?
"In Texas, authorities were able to complete educational assessments on some FLDS children while they were recently in state custody. Jessop said that some children who were tested performed above grade level in some subjects and but were not "as strong" in other subjects.
A Texas caseworker testified in May that a group of teenage girls who were living at the Yearning for Zion Ranch - including Teresa Jeffs, daughter of the sect leader - were assessed during their two-month stay at High Sky Ranch in Midland.
That assessment found the children were "well beyond target," the caseworker said."
laurie & llorona
I haven't figured rericson out yet. She appears quite histrionic at times and has said a number of things that just make me wonder how anyone could say things like she says. Txbluesman really did a good job of finding some really crazy statements she made when she injected herself into some court cases near her.
She is 100% pro FLDS and refuses to believe anything by people like Singular, Krakauer or ex-FLDS who have told their stories. Watching her launch into attack mode against laurie is just another item that makes me question her stability.
She admits to having a pretty crappy childhood so part of me believes she's playing out some psychodrama in her head and both projecting on and identifying with the people in the FLDS mess.
silver
The odd thing about the "free exercise" clause is that it gives you a pretty broad constitutional right to be a moron.
That's part of what fascinates me about this mess. I have the constitutional right to indoctrinate my children into my belief in the flying spaghetti monster. However, society has a right to protect my children from the belief that force feeding them pasta will cure their juvenile diabetes.
It's that interesting collision that keeps me watching this unfold.
Silver, there are plenty of practical motivations for depriving oneself of things. I really shouldn't have to explain the benefits of depriving oneself of cake and ice cream to stay trim and live longer. Or to deprive oneself of much partying in favor of study so that you ultimately earn more. It appears they believe that in depriving of worldly influence and pleasures they are earning merits for the next life.
And BTW, it stands for Zeitgeist movie, which you should watch, it will open your eyes.
Ron in Houston, please be more precise. It's these little issues of words that make all the difference.
You say "However, society has a right to protect my children from the belief that force feeding them pasta will cure their juvenile diabetes."
Actually, no. Society has a right to protect your children from the *practice* (NOT belief) of force feeding of a kind that is injurious to health. I can teach my kids that smoking marijuana is good. But until I light them a roll of hash, CPS has no right to intervene.
Ziggy
Actually you're incorrect. You don't need to actively do anything. Society has a right to take a kid to get a blood transfusion when you don't believe in blood transfusions. Society has the right to take a kid for antibiotics when your belief is that prayer will heal them.
Ron,
As per usual with you, you are making all sorts of assumptions based on nothing but thin air. And, again, as per usual, you are twisting things to meet your own outcome needs.
Concerning the two cases in my own community where I not only publically stood up for the accused, I also seeriously questioned the alledged "victims", I knew, and had professional involvment with at least one of the principles in each matter. I did not, as you assert, inject myself into those cases. Perhaps you have no experience with small town life where everyone knows everyone else and most folks have multiple points of interconnections.
I have certainly never said I do not believe anything from any of the professional 'victims' that abound in the instant matter. In fact I have said, and do believe, that each of them probably were victims of awful things at the hands of various family members. I have also said that I do not believe their circumstances are community wide. I have further said that I think this phenomenom of becoming a professional victim is shameful. And, I have also said that their role and credibility only exists because of the seemingly insatiable appetite of the American public for the salacious and sensational.
I have held from the beginning that I believe that there are problems in the FLDS community. I have also held that the way to approach the community and identify the issues and address them in a way that will be meaningful and sustainable is not with guns blazing and people like Laurie, Flora, Carolyn, et al as a cheering section.
I do think that the "Safety Net" initiative shows promise. If handled well it could be the starting point for the development of new and honest communication and problem solving efforts.
I think your problem with me is that I am rational, common sense based, and make a serious attempt at problem solving instead of engaging in the ugly feeding frenzy of unearned, self righteous, hate mongering you seem to so love. You've taken a very ugly, unprofessional stand for someone who claims to be an advocate for children, It makes your clinging to anonymity understandable. I would never want my name attached to the kinds of things you so often spout.
Hate, bigotry, and meanspiritedness are ugly and distasteful no matter what dressing you add.
As for my own childhood, yes, I am sure it has played a significant role in why I have made some of my life choices. I think, however, having parented several children with extraordinary needs and challenges has had a more direct impact on my choice to leave my career of choice twenty-five years ago and work exclusively as an advocate in the Children's Behavioral Health System. And, I would be glad to engage in a discussion about that with you in a different forum, anytime you'd like.
Since it is now our turn to be in the line of hurricaine weather, I am going to go batton down the hatches and hope my basement doesn't flood too badly.
Ron, are you saying "society" or the government has a right to enter your home and take your kids without probable cause? Sure if the kid is in imminent danger. But a belief per se is not evidence of imminent danger. It has to be accompanied by other pertinent facts, such as the child having diabetes or leukemia or whatever.
Geeze, the way you twist a theory to support you point is quite disingenuous. You're starting to be almost as bad as TBM.
laurie the Labaron said:
"Good news! Maybe we're finally going to see some long-term funding in Utah for victims of polygamy. BRAVO! Go, Utah, go!"
Sound like you are endorsing welfare FRAUD! Are you?
You people are so pitiful. Really. "FLDS Plant", conspiracy theory, etc, why do you wonder if the women avoid those who hate them?
Good heavens are you really martians or do you just play them in the blogs?
BOH 4:44 PM
Love Letter:
Laurie babie (literally): What's BOH? "Bent On Hell"? Sounds pretty accurate, considering your Labaron background, and then associating your murderous backgro
ud with every human being on planet oz who raises children. Just not credible, is it.
Chow now, old cow. Got milk? Then wipe it. Women aren't supposed to have mustaches, even if they wear the pants, in which case zip it.
With all my love,
Street
Peek-a-boo.
"Or didn't y'all notice that not just any FLDS woman was allowed to speak to the media or appear on TV. It was always the same six or eight ones."
Llorona, interesting handle for someone posting on an FLDS blog.
Wrap your mind around this: the reason you saw the same women back in April is that the other mothers were being held by CPS at Fort Concho & later the Coliseum. Those women were not allowed to leave, make phone calls, or speak with anyone except their attorneys while being detained. Once they were forced out of the Coliseum, many of them spoke with the media. Some still haven't, but it's because they don't want to, not because they're not allowed to.
Oh B.S. This was after a bunch of women returned to the ranch.
Llorona is right, FLDS women do exactly what they're told to do, and that includes the women in Centennial Park. They're all slaves.
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
Laurie -
2 things:
1) Centennial Park and the FLDS are NOT the same group. Please don't confuse the two.
2) This quote from John Taylor sums up the way Centennial Park feels about slavery so please DO NOT say that we are slaves!
"I cannot, will not be a slave. I would not be a slave to God! I'd be His servant, friend, His son. I'd go at His behest; but would not be His slave. I'd rather be extinct than be a slave. His friend I feel I am, and he is mine:-a slave! The manacles would pierce my very bones - the clanking chains would grate upon my soul - a poor, lost, servile, crawling wretch to lick the dust and fawn and smile upon the thing who gave the lash! ... I'm God's free man: I will not, cannot be a slave!"
penelope...
Centennial Park and the FLDS are basically the same - they both cowtow to the same patriarchal polygamy BS.
I'm familiar with John Taylor's quote, and like I said, polygamous women and children are slaves.
Taylor said, "...I'd be His servant, friend, His SON. ... "I'm God's free MAN: I will not, cannot be a slave!"
No mention of women/children.
I rest my case.
Laurie -
Are you at all familiar with the Declaration of Independence? In case you are not, let me quote one sentence. "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness." By your logic, the Declaration of Independence applies only to men and not to women. I heartily disagree with that. Both men and women are entitled to those rights.
As for your continued insistence that the FLDS and Centennial Park are the same, I will just state once again that they are not. I'm sorry if you don't understand this, but it is true.
Penelope...
Oh yes, the Centennial group of polygamists are sooo progressive! lol
I was going to do a film about sexist language in the Declaration of Independence but Michael Moore beat me to it.
Wver heard of the Equal Rights Amendment? We don't change historical language, we amend it. Comprende?
Yes, I've heard of the Equal Rights Amendment, but honestly I've never read it until today. To be sure we are talking about the same thing here is the text of it.
Section 1. Equality of Rights under the law shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any state on account of sex.
Section 2. The Congress shall have the power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.
Section 3. This amendment shall take effect two years after the date of ratification.
I'm not sure why any rational person would have a problem with this amendment nor do I see how it supports your position/argument. If you want to amend historical language to make it more politically correct and specific in guarantying rights, that is fine with me.
It is commonly known that people in the olden days used terms like "men" and "mankind" when in fact referring to "people" and "human kind." Since John Taylor is dead it is going to be a little hard to get him to amend his statement so I think we should look at it in its historical context and understand his true meaning.
You fokes must realize where this bitter Laurie cat comes from, the very murderous Leboron polygamous group in Mayheeko that killed Rulon Allred, and has continually threatened the FLDS Church with violence. So she gets her ultra-bitter spirit from that, and it is just tearing her apart.
Art Art let a fart, and blew it all apart.
One can still hope that in some other life, she can come to peace with family life, and the way of the Lord (Matt.10:34).
You folks should keep in mind that Streets refers to any woman who has left the FLDS as being whores (because he claims they are all gone due to sex). Shame on any FLDS man who refers to his fellow FLDS sisters, mothers, daughters in this way.
street..glad you haven't been committed yet :-)
Oh girls, I'm committed! Fully committed to the Lord Jesus Christ. Come, join me, if you DARE! Double dare ya.
As for my "fellow FLDS sisters, mothers, daughters":
Mat 12:48: But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
onthestreet
You're average Joe on the street doesn't see much difference between FLDS, Centennials, or LeBarons.
They will however see that laurie had the wisdom to become an EX member of those groups.
4:15 PM
Ronny Baby: Do you see the folly of that statement (YET)? "Ex-Member of THOSE GROUPS"?
Just another whopper lie, that even you would agree, seeing how she is only an ex-member of ONE of those groups, not all three. So it is a lie, yes? (And Ron humbly apologizes).
Even kindergartners know that every group is vastly different, even every family within those groups. Hell, every one of you have to agree that even every individual within every family is vastly different.
So what you just said is par for the great deception that is sweeping the world (as prophesied: Rev.12:9), in equating the strict following of God's Word in one group with the vast violations and compromises of God's word in others.
How many groups abide by the law (Ex.22:29), to "bring forth the first fruits and liquors", which is puberty? To be "known by their pure fruits"? To "Be about the business of a father at 12" (Luke 2:49), and like differences that can be innumerated from Genesis to Revelation, between the FLDS and any other group.
The world can see it, and knows that it is true.
penelope...
Polygamous women are servants to their husbands, and they attain eternal salvation through him. John Taylor meant what he said, literally.
Polygamists will never amend their scripture to give women equal status. That would undermine the very premise of their evil agenda which is to subjugate women and have sex with little girls.
12:20 PM
Polygamist women are servants to their husbands...Polygamists will never amend their scripture.
REPLY: This is what makes them saints, by not amending or compromising God's Word. Christ Himself confessed to being a servant, and all the Prophets as SERVANTS of the Lord. That is a true confession of their sainthood, that you have now testified to.
The people before Noah, the Jews, the Christians, the Mormons, and even others calling themsellves "fundamentalist", obvious to all, amended their scriptures in their lives. This is why they fell away, why the flood came upon them, why the Jews crucified Christ, why the Roman (church) slew the disciples and the early Christians, and why the Mormons turned to prostitution to get gain.
Jesus said it best: "Few there be that find it". And why? Because they are too proud and evil and abusive to serve God's purpose. All would agree that this is true, for it is scripture.
Street, This is a 'cut and paste' from another thread. I just figured if you came here first I wanted to make sure you saw it...
street...
Some of your posts are quite witty. Most are intelligent.
But when you start preaching and instructing on what and how to believe, you turn people away.
Your intentions may be good, but you effectively close down dialogue. And that is not good.
This is one of the few blogs where folks who actually support the FLDS, or at least are against the persecution they are suffering can come and discuss issues and ideas...and the naysayers, although having their say, don't run the show or run people off.
So please...don't turn this forum into one where people don't want to bother posting or reading....
Temper your lectures, please....
3:56 PM
Preaching the Word of the Lord, which is the greatest love of the FLDS people, and the very topic of this forum, is as helpful as you can get to the FLDS. It is only harmful to the Devil and his subjects, those who violate the Word, so you truly expose yourself for all to see.
With so many charging the FLDS Church with violations of the preached Word, isn't it quite surprising when they become offended by that very Word, including "child" marriage, which is the law, the Bar and Bat Mitzvah, adolescence or adult essence at age 12, which Christ Himself fulfilled in order "to be about the business of a father" (Luke 2:49), and what you call "child molestation".
All can see your folly. This is an FLDS forum, and the preaching of the Word and being preached to is what FLDS is all about. It is our great love, and if it is not yours then you are on the wrong forum. This forum's dedicated to the FLDS, and if you can't discuss the Word of God, you can't discuss FLDS nor "The Plural Life", for that is the Word of God, the roots of the Mormon, Christian, and Jewish people.
All will acknowledge that God Himself is a polygamist, being the Father of us all, with millions of mothers. Guess what fokes. That's polygamy. So you are all very fine polygamists, and if you disown it, then you disown your Father and God, which makes you bastards.
However, there are some here who are learning, and are overcoming their bastardity and beastiality, and realizing that there is nothing else in existence besides the preached Word. By the Word, all things came into existence. So you complain against your own existence. Yet, all are learning, one letter at a time, like kindergartners graduating to the first grade. So I realize that your intellect and your attention span are very small. Let it grow.
How's that for tempering lectures? Do not lose your temper over God's Word, and you will do just fine. If you can't stand the heat of God's light, or of Eve's kitchen, then find yourself a cave of a forum more to your liking, with the stone man. But if we're going to discuss "The Plural Life", with all of its ramifications, the light must shine. It might be blinding, and the truth sting, and the swine run headlong into the sea, but that is the work of Christ.
Barf!
Read streets posts if you want to know the mindset of a typical male polygamist... all ignorance and arrogance.
OK Laurie, let’s assume for a moment that you are correct and that woman are servants to their husbands. Where is the harm in that? A servant is not a slave. Dictionary.com defines a servant as “a person in the service of another.” Why in the world would it be so terrible to be in the service of another? I don’t know if you believe in marriage at all, but don’t most people want to help, assist, and build up their spouse, partner, significant other, or whatever term you choose to classify those closest to you with?
As for you saying they “attain eternal salvation through him,” that makes me chuckle a little bit because a woman gains her salvation based on her works. Her husband can go to Hell and she can still go to Heaven. Her salvation in not dependent on him.
I don’t know how you define “equal status” so I’m not sure how to answer you as far as that goes. However, in any organization there is always a head. And yes, in our religion the man is the head of the family. God set it up that way for the sake of order. Can you imagine the chaos and confusion in a household with multiple wives if it wasn’t set up that way? Those who don’t like it are not forced to participate.
It greatly sickens me to hear you accuse polygamists of having an “evil agenda which is to subjugate women and have sex with little girls.” That statement honestly makes me sick to my stomach. It is possible that there are people like that out there somewhere in this great big world we live in but to say that is how all polygamists are is WRONG.
penelope
Oops, you're right, I meant slaves.
For 140+ years the polygamous population has grown steadily in and around Utah, and I don't know the exact number, but let's say 200,000 polygamists have come and gone in the past 7+ generations. Can you name any great contribution they have made to society?
Can you name a great Poet? Author? Composer? Medical researcher? Musician? Chemist? Anthropologist? Linguist? Astronomer? Inventor? Philosopher? Engineer? Architect? Athlete? etc.?
And do polygamists have sex with little girls? Yes. When a 50 year old polygamist wants another wife, there aren't any women available in their 40s and 50s...women that age are already married and have a swarm of children, so polygamist prey on young girls. They really don't have any other choice.
Do I think polygamists are evil people? No. Do I think they need to be educated and deprogrammed? Yes. Do I think a polygamous culture is inherently evil? Yes. Why? Because Mother Nature or God doesn't create enough females to support the lifestyle.
And polygamists will say anything to justify the 1000s of disenfranchised boys and men who have fled or been shunned from polygamous communities, like the Auto Body shop owner in Kanab who was raised in the FLDS, or the Transmission Mechanic in Fredonia (the list is endless)...:Oh, he left by choice" or "He couldn't live by our rules" or "He was a party animal" or "He lost the faith" or "He didn't want to be a polygamist" or whatever...
When the truth of the matter is that male to female birthrates, globally, are 50-50.
Numbers don't lie.
L(ar)IE Said (9:40 AM)
Numbers don't L(aur)IE.
STREET's Reply: God is the Father of us all, is He not. Even you will agree with that, L(ar)IE. One Father, and Millions of mothers, so every poet, Author, Composer, Medical researcher, Musician, Chemist, Anthropologist, Linguist, Astronomer, Inventor, Philosopher, Engineer, Architect, Athlete, etc. comes from Polygamy. Numbers don't lie. There is not other marriage or social system in existence. You destroy your own heritage, making yourself a bastard.
L(aur)IE said: And do polygamists have sex with little girls? Yes".
REPLY: Well, you came from the murderous Labaron polygamist community. Is that what happened to you? Because you was raped, does it hold true that ALL WOMEN ARE RAPED, because it happened to little laurie? I empathize with your anger girl, but why go about seeking TO DESTROY ALL LITTLE GIRLS because you was destroyed? You merely consummate your own destruction. Is it because your father and uncles were killers themselves? Wasn't Ervil Lebaron the head of your community, the man who murdered Rulon Allred?
We know you had murder and rape in your past. Is this why you seek to heap it onto the whole world?
You can do better than that, if it's in you. If not, you just destroy yourself.
TYPO:
There is NO other marriage or social system in existence. You destroy your own heritage, making yourself a bastard.
Good grief onthestreet, I know Laurie has her problems, but I really don't think you should tell her to destroy herself.
Laurie,
I was doing some research the other night about the very topic you brought up about the population. According to the 2000 US Census, the population is ROUGHLY split 50/50. There are, however, approx. 5 million more woman than men. At most, I would guess there are 100,000 polygamists in the entire country. That being the case, your population arguement doesn't really work.
Also, it is really insulating for you to insinuate that because no polygamist has made a contribution to society that YOU consider great we are a worthless culture.
As far as your sex with little girls thing....*sigh* this has been gone over so many times I wonder why I even bother trying again. Once a female turns 18 she is a legal adult and nothing she does is anyone's business as long as she is doing it of her own free will and choice and not infringing on the rights of anyone else. As for females under 18, every person I know tells them they have to wait until they are 18 to get married. However, it is legal to get married in Utah at the age of 16 with parental consent.
And one other thing, the "Lost Boys" number has been greatly exaggerated in the media and by Dan Fischer.
Penalope, do you live in an envelope? Read it again. It says DO NOT destroy yourself. You're just an alarmist, paranoid of everything everyone says, and scream to high heaven if anyone says: BOOOO
Heaven forbid anyone complimenting you. You'd seek their destruction.
Now, girly, you be a good girl, each your milk and cookies, and I will tuck you in bed. That would be a number-6 envelope for penelope, padded with feathers of course, or soft and cuddly goose down. Nity nite.
Street
Sorry about that onthestreet. I guess my eyes were tired and I misread your last line.
You are a strange duck, but maybe if you let me borrow a letter opener I get out of my envelope.
FLDS Folks are always free. Free as a bird, but here birds of a feather flock together.
"Knock, and I will open"
I'm a male non-plyg who will be working with FLDS teeners who have chosen to leave (or been forced out of)their families. I have the following ideas as to the nature of FLDS families. Please let me know how accurate or how far off I may be. I would appreciate your experiential insights:
1) Some families are hell to live in--abuse, back-biting, disrespect, envy, etc.
2) Some families are a warm delight--love, respect, kindness, compassion, supportive, etc.
3) Some families are a mixture of the two.
Which is most accurate? What is the ratio of one to the other?
Penelope..
The 5 million extra females you're seeing on the census report are senior citizens because on average woman live 8 years longer than men.
Any 50 year old male who marries an 18 year old girl is a pedophile.
And your comment about the Lost Boys only shows your ignorance. Dan Fischer works with a very small percentage of the younger boys who are disenfranchised. There are thousands of males of all ages who were shunned or left polygamous communities all over the Southwest.
To know how many Lost Boys/Men there are, all you have to do is crunch the numbers. In a community of 1000 polygamists, for example, there are 500 males and 500 females. If 250 males take two wives each, then that leaves 250 males without a mate. And we both know that many polygamists have more than two wives!
Now factor in ALL the polygamous sects in the Southwest and the number of disenfranchised males is staggering, and onthestreet is one of them.
A big problems with polygamists is they don't know how to count, and a good solid education will solve a lot of their problems.
laurie,
Your math is bogus, it is YOU who cannot count, why? BECAUASE MALES AND FEMALES DO NOT GET MARRIED AT BIRTH.
You might be right if all you take into consideration is quantites of each sex at birth, but you refuse to realize that there are many other factors involved in marriage.
I have explained this before, but either you missed it or you ignored it.
1-From birth to the age of marriage more males die than females.
2- The age of maturity is lower for females than males, because the responsibilites in a family are different.
3- More males DESIRE to be single than females
4- More males are in the prison system than females
5- More men are unfaithful, and unreliable in thier role than females
6- More women are religiously pious than men.
I have been writing my blog since April and have had many who have asked me about joining the pious and devoutly family and religiously oriented FLDS. It has been THREE to ONE ladies to gentlemen.
IT IS YOU who want WOMEN to stay unmarried from the men they find worthy, and you want us to feel sorry for the men?
I think YOU need an education, O blind one.
piggy...
More males are born than females but male infants have a higher mortality rate...you know, because their weaker...lol
Your other stats are too general to be reliable. First of all, females are unfaithful in nearly equal numbers these days due to birth control and women coming into their own sexual awareness and power. As far as who wants and doesn't want to get married depends on the age of the male and female.
For example, in a long-term marriage, if the husband dies first, most widows choose not to remarry. If the wife dies first, the widower tries with might and main to find another slave to cook and clean for him.
I haven't read anything that substantiates your numbers. Maybe you could post a reliable link...you know, one that doesn't lead to some goofy website hosted by Mormon fundies.
Now i completely understand, you hate men.
Or do you have a slave?
Cite your sources, pliggy.
Laurie, KPB and others did the math assuming 3 wives per man, everything else being equal. Assuming they are like 5 years apart or something, and he gets married every 6 years or so, it works out. I don't have the details, mabye KPB can post a link or something.
have had many who have asked me about joining the pious and devoutly family and religiously oriented FLDS. It has been THREE to ONE ladies to gentlemen.
This is one of those unpopular truths that no feminist wants to acknowledge. This comes as no suprise to most of us. I read that of all new LDS members, women outnumber men by a significant margin. If the FLDS allowed new members, then this fact would be obvious. I'm sure Laurie and pals are praying that the FLDS never does this and would start shaking in their boots if they started recruiting "gentiles".
duaneh1...
The FLDS doesn't recruit outsiders for two reasons. 1. Nobody would join, and 2. Outsiders would expose their sex cult.
All FLDS patriarchs have to do is get rid of young males, prevent young females from leaving town, and they get to control and have sex with as many young virgins as they want.
http://www.bankingonheaven.com
duaneh1...
With regards to you LDS numbers, I question your sources because I've looked into stats of LDS converts.
First of all, most Mormon converts are from overseas, and 80% of them defect within the first year. Why? Because they think joining the LDS Church will secure passage to America. Once converts realize it isn't true, they opt out because they don't want to pay tithing.
And that paragraph you wrote about feminists "shaking in their boots"? That's polygamy propaganda at its finest.
Laurie, I am not anti-feminist and happen to be pro-choice. But I understand how polygamy drives feminist types crazy, its a "souped up" patriarchy. If plyg groups started actively recruiting women; many women would join them. Of course on a percentage basis, it would be very small. But numerically...they could get plenty.
I agree that polygamists can and do recruit some women, but most of them would be victimized females from the Mormon Church who already have Stockholm Syndrome, and who are primed for polygamy by founding Mormon leaders, Joseph Smith & Brigham Young.
I don't buy that mainstream women would choose polygamy. No way, Jose! But I'm curious to know why you think they would.
Some women would choose polygamy: If they don't like sex that much-splitting the load would be easier, have sister wives to share household tasks, At the YFZ ranch-nice digs, don't have rush to work everyday, no pressure of paying bills, etc.
Again, most women would not like it, but a few would, out of a population of like 150 million females, they could get plenty.
I'd love to see them try.
luarie...
you available?
LOL
sorry, I had to ask.
I could site sources, future Ms Pliggy (I am on a ROLL HA HA), but it would take too much time out of my day, perhaps in the near future on my blog.
Google this
1- you figured this out without a source?
2- Most clinical records
3- Try male/female quantaties on dating sites that are geared toward marriage (like E-harmony)There are other sources.
4- This one should be easy for you
5- I don't remember the sources, but there are several
6- Been to church lately?
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