Berry Knoll Hearing: In the courtroom
Photos by Trent Nelson
I am so tired that I am tempted to put these photos up and call it good enough. But I will try to give you a little insight into what it was like at the Berry Knoll hearing in St. George today.
This blog shows the action inside the courtroom moments after Judge Denise Lindberg called for a "stand down" so attorneys can try to resolve the dozen or so lawsuits surrounding the trust and come up with a plan for its future management.
The first photo shows FLDS member Willie Jessop conferring with Tim Bodily and Jerry Jensen of the Utah Attorney General's Office as FLDS attorneys Mark Moffat and Jim Bradshaw listen in.
The second photo shows Bodily talking with fiduciary Bruce Wisan, his attorney Zach Shields and Roger Hoole, the attorney hired by the Diversity Foundation to handle various lawsuits against the trust.
Bodily joined Jessop and attorney Jim Bradshaw in a press conference outside the courthouse after the hearing. Jessop praised the AG's Office for stepping in and calling a halt to the escalating conflict.
Bodily told us that the truce deal had been in the works for a few days. As he spoke, many in the FLDS throng crowded close to listen.
Asked if the resolution might include Wisan stepping aside or returning control of the trust to the sect, Bodily said all issues are on the table. Both his boss, Mark Shurtleff, and the Arizona Attorney General's Office will urge all parties to be willing to compromise as they work to ''stop the unnecessary litigation.''
Bodily was asked what had turned the tide and he credited Jessop, FLDS attorney Jim Bradshaw and ''this community being here today, becoming involved.''
''This is why we have a significant change,'' he said.
One issue that has to be worked out is how to pay the $2 million in debt incurred by Wisan. Most of that money is owed to his firm and his attorneys.
I asked Bodily if the state planned to pitch in since it essentially hired Wisan for the job of UEP overseer. That drew laughs from those listening in. But hey, I thought it was a decent question.
His answer: ''The state is not going to do that.''
507 Comments:
There's no reason why we should pay him! We didn't hire him!
The AG's office wants to get with Wisan and the Hooles and the FLDS and see if a compromise can be reached.
It's like two wolves and a sheep deciding between them what's for dinner!
I say continue on with the litigation. Take it to Federal court. Brooke's latest article on allegations that Wisan is in cahoots with the Diversity Foundation, is pretty damning, as is the suit by Parker that provides evidence Wisan perpetrated a fraud on Lindberg's court, or perhaps with her approval, which would be even worse.
The AGs, Wisan, and Lindberg want to keep this out of the Federal courts, of course. The persecutors are thus at a disadvantage at the bargaining table. They're still trembling at the fact that it took Dee Benson all of about an hour to apparently recognize the UEP takeover for what it was: trampling of religious freedom.
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The state doesn't want to pay Wisan because he was unsuccessful in destroying the FLDS. That was the deal all along, to destroy them by bleeding them dry. And what was it really that forced the AG into acting? Was it the crowd at the courthouse or was it the complaint of bias? Perhaps he wanted to stop the talk of a Wisan-Fischer (and judge?) connection before it went too far. If it's the latter, the FLDS should never settle. They've pulled up a board and glimpsed the bugs underneath; now's the time to exterminate them.
Litigating with a trust where you're one of the beneficiaries is a classic example of cutting off your nose in spite of your face.
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Wisan and Fischer aren't the villains.
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Fischer appears to be a sworn enemy of the FLDS, and will do anything to hurt them. If they have something on him, they should pursue it relentlessly. That's the only way to put an end to this vendetta.
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The FLDS people have to litigate against the reformed Trust. They have no choice, if they wish to maintain their identity. Wisan and Fischer (and the government) want to do away with the religious foundation of the trust and secularize it. They would not allow recipients of any holdings to give it back to another religious trust. That's unacceptable to the FLDS; it's diametrically opposed to their religion, where they believe it's necessary to hold their assets in common, as a binding force, if nothing else.
Fischer is protecting the FLDS people and their assets from Warren Jeffs and his cronies.
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Judging by the turnout at the courthouse, the FLDS people don't see it your way.
I think it is time for Willie Jessop and the other leaders in the community, to take stock, make their lists of pros and cons of all aspects...
Measure just what leverage they have, where, and with whom...and then have a very private community meeting and lay it all out...ask for suggestions from the community, have deadline for suggestions...and then sit down with counsel and make a plan...
And there has to be a conscious effort to seperate all the emotion form the planning process...
Which I know will be hard because this is about the very heart of the religion...but cool heads have to prevail...
Decide what the end goals are...to be free of Wisan and ultimately, of court oversight...
To have internal rule, again...
to minimize any financial osses...i.e. settlement of debt and costs of litigation....
Then figure out what the bargaining chips are...having the 'dirt' on folks gives whomever has the dirt a lot of leverage...
Does Wisan really want to get paid, or does he want the 'dirt' to go away...
I don't thin it is in the nature of the FLDS to go for the throat, so to speak, of anyone...they want things back in their control. They don't want to be burdened with unfair debt...and they want some assurance from the AG et al that this won't repeat itself....
And it seems that they are sitting in the catbird's seat if they paly their cards right...
HOORAY!!!!!
and, Brooke, thank you, yet again!!!!
I'm sorry to ask a question that I am sure has been answered many times, but I still do not understand why this land has become a legal and ownership dispute. Could one of the lawyers on this blog put it in simple terms for me, or direct me to a link where it has been explained for dummies. I'm really not interested in hearing how people feel about the land, those feelings are not difficult to understand. I want to understand how title and ownership came into dispute.
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IF anyone is to blame for UEPtrust being taken over its UTAH attorney general.
Now he back peddles???? If I were Utah I would get rid of your AG, the guys brain is dead!
Laurie-
Where do you think I am wrong?
Not being snide, I really want to know....what did I miss?
Silver
The idea was a sort of commune type arrangement. All land was to be owned by the FLDS communally. The UEP trust was the legal vehicle to make that happen. Land in the community was given to the trust which then assigned properties to the members.
The trustees of the trust were the leader of the FLDS until 2005. A court took over the trust from the FLDS leadership and assigned Wisan as the trustee over the trust.
Part of the current problem is that the trust, while land rich, is cash poor. The trustee has incurred fees and wants to be paid. Apparently what he intends to sell is a part of the conflict.
Fischer is protecting the FLDS people and their assets from Warren Jeffs and his cronies.
Laurie, I've got some oceanfront property in Arizona I'd love to sell to you.
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Laurie, "dirt" is , for me, just a figure of speech...sort of like saying someone has the "skinny" on someone else...
I've seen discussion about Wisan and the Judge and the possibility of conflict and conspiracy and all sorts of things...and I thought there was an action already filed to assess that...so I was thinking that it will cost Wissan to defend himself against those allegations, etc. And there is always the possibility of other litigation against him...which gives the FLDS some leverage as far as negotiating his billable hours over the last couple of years.
Just seeems like there could be some leeway in there....
I would think that if the FLDS and their counsel can negotiate an agreed upon sum with Wisan, then they could mortgage some portion of the holdings to raise the cash...they would have the mortgage...or the trust would, so it would still be in FLDS control...
I've often wondered why Wisan didn't seek to finance some of the land to settle debts instead of selling outright...but then I read somewhere that he was the purchaser? Or did I get that wrong?
I think an equitable deal could be struck that falls way short of 'going for the throat'....
Thanks Ron. This is the part that I don't get: "The trustees of the trust were the leader(s) of the FLDS until 2005. A court took over the trust from the FLDS leadership and assigned Wisan as the trustee over the trust."
My question is why did the Court take over? Usually a court takes over when taxes are not being paid, right? Is that what happened here; were taxes not being paid?
Silver and Rericson
Read read read
http://www.ueptrust.com/
Hmm...Willie is concerned about his cows?
Is he leasing the Berry Knoll for this purpose?
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Silver
The technical answer is that they were mismanaging the trust. They didn't respond to lawsuits and it was claimed that assets were disappearing.
There is much more to it than the technical answer. You had politics, you had enemies of Warren Jeffs and various other persons all helping move the situation.
I can certainly understand the mistrust the FLDS have over the situation. It became highly politicized.
Ron maybe you should do some more research. Apple Valley, Shell Corporations, Willie Jessop?
I wonder what Willie Jessop is stealing from the FLDS, while lawyers and politicans are looking the other way?
Peter-Thanks for the link, I've bookedmarked it, there is a huge amount there.
Ron-yes I guess it is probably not as simple as tax delinquency. I remember from being a CASA, that a case usually didn't surface in court until there were so many complicating issues that the facts were now buried. At that point, there would be an entire table of parties to the case and professionals involved, each with just enough power to stall progress while they made their objections and agenda heard, but not enough power to make executive decisions, and the case would stay at a standstill.
I must say, these photographs are overwhelming.
Well, like the young lady said in the news clip - they have a democratic right to choose leaders who are going to steal their money from them no matter how hard the courts try to make sure that does not happen.
The conflict of interest thing is a joke. I can't imagine a judge spending more than an hour on that. In any other state, they wouldn't even hear it.
Before Warren Jeffs split to go on the run. He sold Western Percision for 25,000 dollars. Western Percision at that time was worth several million dollars.
UEPtrust was taken over because Warren Jeffs, NOT the trustees was selling properties to get cash for his running.
Although there were trustee's in name, Warren Jeffs decided everything himself. When Warren Jeffs would not answer supenoa for the land in the trust being sold, and none of the trustees answered supenoas from the Court because there were TWO lawsuits against the trust, the trust was in danger.
http://www.ueptrust.com/UEPTImages/UEP-Report080205.pdf
This is something those who are asking questions need to read.
Whether your Trust is cooperate, or Charitiable. Trustees help keep checks and balances on whate the trust accumulates and how it is dispersed.
The President (Warren Jeffs) did whatever he wanted with the assets of the trust and the trustees has no power to stop him.
harley said...
I beleive there was a split in Flds in 2004. The split came when Allred bought the property at YFZ ranch for Warren Jeffs.
Warren already decided the conflict not only with the state, but within his own followers were taking place. He chose who would occupy the new ZION. Hand picked them himself secretly.
The was to be the NEW Flds financed off the backs of ALL Flds followers, along with Warren Selling off companys and land.
Ya know, I'm as jaded as the next person. And probably more politic than most. Maneuvering and manipulating are old allies of mine.
On the other hand, one of the things I have learned over the past fewmonths is that most of the FLDS really don't get all caught up in internal politics of the FLDS community. They tend to really try to live by the concept of their word is their bond, and do unto others....
When someone tells me that they were glad to help support building the YfZ Ranch, I tend to believe them. When they tell me that they love and trust Warren Jeffs and he has always acted in their interests, I find myself believing them. Things are not always as they seem. And we are all on the outside, looking in.....
I think it would make alot of sense for folks to give the community members the room to plan and then to support them in their plans...even if, on the face, they seem to be plans any one of us might not shoose if we were in their circumstances....
I like the idea that Laurie and a couple of others had yesterday about a warm coat drive...it's a little thing, but they are all facing big costs, so maybe a little thing like that will help them with attorney's fees or heating bills this winter....
I'll ask for the address of the thrift store and send it to Brooke...maybe she can post it.....
Thanks Harley for that part of the UEP trust link that points to the Background as written up the Court.
Since the "history" provided is a naration of "facts" according to Wisan, I would question their veracity. They are his "spin" on events. Remember, those who actually knew what had occured were not talking to him. So much of what he has recorded as 'facts' is really just hearsay and supposition....
If I were really interested in the details, I would ask some of the FLDS folks who post here for their recollections....
Rericson
The FLDS that post here are expert
liars for their Lord Warren.
The FLDS obedient who are neither deaf or dumb in Shortcreek will be left a holding a judgement against them and it won't be from Heavenly Father.
Peter, I think the snideness in your comment is unfair and unecessary.
It seems to me that there may be several judgments and or settlements that will have to be dealt with. What is your point? I think that the FLDS will handle them appropriately, without outside interference. I would guess that the recent change in how matters are handled is with, if not the direction, then certainly the consent of Warren Jeffs. Be that as it may, it is there business. Not ours.
From all that I can tell this community is very industrious and has managed to sustain itself for many years....I don't think their current problems are insurmountable. And if they are, they are quite capable of retaining an outside expert to help them....
silver, what has to be remembered is that the pretext for taking over the trust was allegations of mishandling, nothing more. But this in itself still is not sufficient reason to take over the trust. Technically, a takeover requires standing, which neither the government nor Fischer had.
Therefore, Lindberg did something really crafty. She decided that the trust was a "charitable trust" so that the AG's office would have standing to make motions, etc. Once that was done, the house of cards could continue to be built on the shoddy foundation of "allegations of mishandling" (which have been shown to be nothing but fraudulant lies -- see Parker's lawsuit and my website for more http://www.freetoseparate.blogspot.com/).
Thanks Z. I am indeed aware that the 'Background' is a Court document, and I assumed when I read it that the locals would probably write up a very different narrative for 'background'.
If anyone is interested in the truth about what harley har har said.
Warren Jeffs sold nothing of the UEP's, had relatively nothing to do with selling WP's building to WP, and there was no split in 2004. Any other dumb accusations? ...nevermind LOL
Just imagine if the former trustees had been billing the trust as much as the self annointed "S.O.B." has, 2 million every 18 months, when they were doing it for free.
I'm not interested in emotional recountings of history, compared with being able to read actual court documents, rericson. The UEP Trust website is not Wisans personal blog, it's a repository of what happened in Lindberg's court room.
But don't let facts get in the way!
Pliggy
Really how would you know? You're on the outs and anything you get will be hearsay on top of hearsay.
You're just saying what you want to believe.
Where did Warren get the vast amounts of cash to run from the law? FLDS welfare checks?
ron, you are so cute.
I kinda was there, ya know, THERE, very much unlike harley and his imaginary friends.
How many welfare checks were given to the FLDS people? Oh, that would be NONE. Talk about heresay LOL
Oh wait, that is unless you count EIC, which our buddy Obama wants to double for them.
Betty,
If you are interested in a good solid history of the area, including legal documents, read Ben Bistline's _The Polygamists, a History of Colorado City_. (I may have misplaced a word or two in the title, but the gist is there I hope.) Our library acquired it after the request was placed.
betty...
the "history" filed by Wisan in the court documents you so revere, is nothing more than his personal gathering of misinformation, much of which came from folks like Dan Fischer. Just because something is filed with the court doesn't amke it gospel...
And just because something isn't filed with the court doesn't invalidate it's veracity....
This entire court mess is in question...what the relationships are...who knew whom, under what circumstances, etc....
Perhaps you need to stop personalizing everything...you have no cause to be angry and nasty in your postings....
And please, don't tell me you believe that no CPA or atty. would ever file anything with a court that was less than true....Why my gosh, that would be anti-American!!!...bamboozleing the courts is the American way!!!!!
Ron...records pretty clearly show no AFDC or other cash disbursements were ever made...WIC, F.S., medicaid...but no cash...a few instances of SSI and SSDI....but, as you know, those are retirement and disability entitlements...not the same as "welfare".
P.S. Ron, I KNOW you're the exception to the bamboozle rule...so don't jump all over it!!!!
folks who go off in search of reading materials should all bear in mind that almost anything you can find has been written with the author's individual biases running in the back ground...and they ALL are biased...and NO ONE has written a complete anything...folks tend to leave out all sorts of things that don't fit their biases...so what may appear to be "complete" is only complete to the uninformed or the naive...which most of us are, because we don't know the players, or what could be missing to even look for it....
The amalgm of available information gives an outline...but it is the people who were there, from all sides, that can really fill in the clor and detail...not just those who have left angry or embittered....
g'morning, pliggy!!!!
where are you hailing from, today?????
Hopefully somwhere warm....
Oh, and betty, the UEP website IS a repository of Wisan's personal ramblings and choices of what to post....and EACT is, his "history" is as hearsay as a history can get because folks don't talk to him....
But please, don't let facts get in the way
How posting what is entered into court could be personal opinion, I don't know. Yes, he wrote a lot of the reports that were entered. It is still a FACT that they are entered. It is still a FACT what the trust document actually says, what date it was recorded, etc. People want to speculate on the wording of the trust and then refuse to read it. I have to assume that they have a personal agenda, for instance preserving the fantasy that they are the hero negotiator who will single-handedly solve a problem which many others have failed to solve.
rericson,
I'm not angry or nasty. Sarcastic, maybe. Smile.
I just don't accept your role as controller of this comment area, nor master negotiator, nor your pose as being unemotional, unbiased and better informed. If that's nasty to you, then so be it.
Pliggy wrote "How many welfare checks were given to the FLDS people? Oh, that would be NONE. Talk about heresay LOL"
Although there have been no credible reports of fraud in Short Creek area, they DO receive welfare and other forms of public assistance in record amounts. There are lots of reports of that from Utah state sources. From what I have read YFZ did NOT receive such aid.
I have not read any credible information to indicate that WSJ got money from the trust while he was on the lam. He was found with individual envelopes of money from the FLDS with prayer requests. So I'm reserving judgment on that until I learn more about it.
I agree with Ron that you are speaking hearsay, Pliggy. Your opinion varies from other xFLDSers I have personally spoken with. I'm sure everyone tells their own story from their own point of view. But I don't think your stance of arrogant authority is really based on anything real.
Pliggy,
Your statement: "Warren Jeffs sold nothing of the UEP's, had relatively nothing to do with selling WP's building to WP, and there was no split in 2004."
If I understand you correctly, you are saying that yes YFZ was built, but it didn't reflect a split? Is that correct?
Here is my impression of what I had always assumed had happened.
1. Warren Jeffs has a specific vision of the pure life on earth, and its capacity to create the exalted afterlife.
2. WJ looks at Short Creek and decides it's not perfect and won't bring about the exalted life, at least not in time.
3. WJ selects Texas due to its well known libertarian leanings, proximity, and well, general potential for the plan.
4. WJ uses the resources needed to help bring about the realization of the work, which is his job, by moving resources around in a communally owned enterprise, which is what the prophet has always had to do to construct or build anything.
5. Loss of people, revenue and real goods from Short Creek to build YFZ depleted Short Creek.
6. But more important, the removal of individual family members from families, and the repositioning of the prophet to Texas deprived the community of the motivation to thrive, and the community showed the effects in all areas.
7. Exiling some people due to their ostensible lack of faith, and using their homes as material for the plan came across as unjust to some of those people and they filed lawsuits.
8. All those things together, coupled with the general depression and lack of direction put Short Creek into a decline which precipated the hiring of Wisan, which impressed the community as monstrously unfair, and it looks as if the effects of strategy of Warren Jeffs are Wisan's fault.
Pliggy, obviously this is the view of an outsider, what else can I give? If this is wrong or incomplete, then please give a more detailed sketch of what happened, from your standpoint.
rericson wrote "When someone tells me that they were glad to help support building the YfZ Ranch, I tend to believe them. When they tell me that they love and trust Warren Jeffs and he has always acted in their interests, I find myself believing them."
I believe that they believe that. That does not make it true that WSJ was acting in their best interest. It just means that they believe it to be true. Some people believe the moon walk was a trick and never happened. That does not make them liars, but then again, it does not make it so.
There were people who were faithful to Jim and Tammy Faye after he went to jail for fraud, also. Some people would rather keep on being conned than to admit that they ever fell for it.
Pliggy and Mamma Regina
Man you've lost your edge. The discussion is about the UEP and whether Warren Jeffs hosed the beneficiaries by selling properties to keep him on the run.
Remember he got caught because the brand new Cadillac he was riding in had paper license plates. He had 16 cell phones and $55,000 in cash.
He had to get those large amounts of cash from some place.
Hailing from "somewhere in time" lol Sunny Southern Arizona.
Benny Bistline's story is from the prospective of the apostates who split off from the church in the 80's, the same ones who are trying to buy Berry Knoll today.
Hey Silver, does he include in his story his new home that the FLDS gave to him? That we remodeled and landscaped for him? The one that his wife said was the best home she ever lived in?
I doubt it, but he probably includes being "evicted" from the shack that he lived in on UEP property, the one that was so dilapidated that instead of trying to salvage it, the volunteer fire department used it as a training fire.
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Ron, he didn't get it from selling anything in the UEP, thats for sure.
Wisan sued Western Precision because the UEP sold the land to them, he sued them for the SMALL amount the UEP charged Western Precision, he wanted WP to pay HIM for MY labor and materials donated to build WP. Wisan almost literally drove WP out of town, the largest employer there. So much for "economic development".
As usual larie gets it exactly backwards.
The trust was sued in 1987 by the Centennial Park group, the lawsuit lasted two judges, millions of dollars, and ten years.
The second judge gave those who had built on the Trust lands a "Life Estate" because of their claim that they didn't know they werent building on land they had no deed to. (Really)
After that lawsuit ended, the Leaders of the FLDS restated the Trust so that it was inambiguous, and that no one could use that excuse again. That was in 1998.
The Purpose of the Trust
As defined by one of the founders
What really amazes me are all the FLDS who are complaining about Wisan's fees when they've used every passive agressive (and some active agressive) trick to make his life difficult.
Knock knock. Hello McFly? You're only hurting yourselves in the end.
Every lawsuit filed against the UEP is like a wire transfer from Short Creek to some lawyer or accountant in Salt Lake.
Remember, the winner in a war still ends up with a pile of rubble.
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Typo "didn't know they WERE building on land they had no deed to"
laurie,
No he didn't, his father did, signed by all the trustees.
Ron,
Ya, I know, its not the states fault for the gunshot wounds, when they say "dance" and the FLDS doesn't, how can they blame anyone else?
Pliggy,
"Hey Silver, does he include in his story his new home that the FLDS gave to him?"
I have no idea. That's why I asked you to give me your side of the story. What causes you to believe that I would know the answer to that question? Of course Bistline's history is from the standpoint of an apostate. What else could it be? If you have a different story, and you want others to understand it, then it is your job to provide it. Challenging other people because they don't automatically hold your perspective will not change anyone's point of view, and instead Pliggy will develop high blood pressure,if he doesn't have it already. A lot of truckers do.
Silver,
I was asking a question regarding a book that you refrenced here, I apologize for assuming that you read the book you were telling others to read.
I am not mad, I am sad, but hey, thanks for the health tip lol.
Ron,
What happens/who is responsible, to/for Wisan's fees if the court finds his appointment to have been in error in the first place?
Betty, You're nuts. Sorry you don't like, or don't grasp my writing style...Oh well...I'm over it.....
And don't presume anything...like your presumption that I have not read both trust documents, as well as the litany of court motions, responses, and orders...
Further, as I said earlier, filing something and having it on record doesn't make it true...nor is a court order necessarily just...especially if it hasn't been tested at a higher court level...so we're all going to have to wait and see...
As for how Warren Jeffs financed his flight from prosecution, folks seem to forget that several of the members of the FLDS community are very, very sucessful business men....
Since there are no records of sales for properties just prior and during Jeffs time on the 'lam', maybe folks are telling the truth when they say he did not milk, or bilk the community!!!!!!
Maybe, just maybe, some folks who are loyal to him gladly financed him, with their personal money....
Oh, and betty...pliggy is not an 'ex-FLDSer'. He is FLDS. He is currently not a priesthood holer, nor does he live in the community, but he has not forsaken his religion, nor is he apostate.
Apparently those you have talked to are in the later category.
oops...holDer, not holer.....
Pliggy,
Actually, I misunderstood your question. I understood it later when I reread my own response online.
Yes I've read the book, but lightly, and I need to read it again. It is very dense going, and legal documents for some of us are tough going.
I initially thought that by asking the question, you were making the point that Bistline was given compensation for whatever he lost, and asking me if I knew this. No, I didn't know it.
What I need from you, is a clearly and simply stated history of this land ownershp problem from your standpoint, stated without accusation and without anger. I cannot cope with your anger, its too much for me.
Pliggy,
In the meantime, I found the history that you put up on FLDS View, and linked to a few messages earlier. That's good enough for me. Thanks.
Ron where did the FLDS get the money to bail out the indicted men in Texas. They must have stole it from the UEP Trust huh?
betty, even though you believe the moon walk happened, it doesn't make it true.
Your belief-does-not-make-it-true philosophy works both ways.
And it's rather presumptuous to think you have a monopoly on truth.
It's very hard to leave the flds when you have children
Rericson
I'm certain the time is past to appeal the appointment of Wisan. The only way the trust would not be charged for his fees if it it could be shown that he breached his fiduciary duties.
Pliggy
The "state" is often wrong. However with the UEP, it is FLDS using its own treasure to fund a no win war. Even if they win, they actually lose because it cost them money from the UEP. Want to remove Wisan? Fine it will cost you your own money.
Ziggy
I don't know maybe they sold the electrical stuff they moved from Short Creek to YFZ.
Ziggy
I saw Apollo 11 take off from Cape Kennedy Florida. Therefore, my belief that the moon walk occurred is based upon actual facts.
I suppose we could get into an epistomological debate over how we ever "know" anything is true, but some beliefs are rational and some are frankly delusional.
Religiously raise your little girls to believe one way and one way only, keep them away from TV, radio, newspapers, magazines, give them a carefully scripted minimal education, tell them what to wear, how to think, segregate them from boys, watch them like a hawk, indoctrinate, indoctrinate, indoctrinate: then as soon as you possibly can, impregnate them and keep them that way for as long as physically possible so they can't leave, and if they complain, give them Prozac, and if Prozac doesn't work send them to the looney bin; or if the moms escape with the kids, daddy has all the money, daddy has all the power and control, so
daddy hires a lawyer and snatches your kids away, because after all you have a record, you've been "committed", you take "Prozac", you don't have any money, you don't fit in, you can't provide for those children, and so your children are stripped away; now the kids are gone and you're all alone in
a cruel world, but you need to protect them, and you're brokenhearted, the kids are back with daddy, and daddy isn't safe, your sister wives aren't safe, so you run back to your perpetrator; you're a wicked woman now for rebelling, for costing daddy money, everybody stares at you, so you never raise your voice or raise your eyes while everybody gossips and snitches on your every move, and your husband scorns you; and you remember when you were a little girl there was another woman like you, and they made fun of her, too, you're just the traitor now who does the dirty work, you clean the toilets, you're treated like crap, but thank God the children are safe for now, and the days go by, and the years pass, and little by little you redeem yourself, quietly crawl your way back, because now your children are older, the girls are almost ripe for marriage, the boys will be gone soon, and your heart is sore, tired, like a stone in your chest, and people don't look at you so funny, but they remember, god how they never forget, and then one day you look in the mirror, and you look just like them, you talk just like them, you smile just like them, so you take another little pill and live another day.
Ron in Houston said...
Litigating with a trust where you're one of the beneficiaries is a classic example of cutting off your nose in spite of your face.
You're the last of the 'big thinkers', Ron!
Cheese
I don't get it. The day in Federal Court? Cha ching - more money from UEP. Remove Wisan? Even if FLDS wins - cha ching - more money from UEP and the next guy probably won't be any better.
It really doesn't matter if you're right. You're spending your own treasure and will win nothing but an empty shell of a trust.
ron-
what if the FLDS can come up with a managment plan that does not include an outside fiduiary, has a say, five year oversight plan included....
Couldn't they negotiate any outstanding debts, when there's an agreed ammount, mortgage some portion of the property(ies), and move forward without Wisan or a replacment?
I recall rading news reports a year or so ago about entire buildings in the twin cities disappearing overnight. What happened to them?
Ron says:
"I don't know maybe they sold the electrical stuff they moved from Short Creek to YFZ."
----
I don't know Ron...maybe maybe maybe doesn't prove anything. Do you always rely on guesswork? How about reserving judgment until you know the facts.
As for Wisan, as I said before and will reiterate, since you seem to be cluelessly insensitive to the preferences of religious people. Wisan is giving the residents of Short Creek no choice but to abandon religious tenets, such as the law of consecration. To you that may not mean anything, which just makes you an egotist. But to them, that means their whole life. Of course they will pay whatever it takes to change the position they are in: under the thumb of someone who's intent on dismantling their way of life.
passingthru, I think this will answer your question about the "lost buildings." Look for the part under "Fraud Concerning Personal Property."
http://truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=138
Ron, like any good scientist, I will wait until I hear a second opinion, or in the case of the moon walk, see another government do it. I'm not going to take NASA's word for it. I'm not that gullible.
Ziggy
Man did you get up on the wrong side of the bed or what? You didn't work the word "bigot" into that rant but you came close.
The problem you're ignoring is that while FLDS members make up the majority of the beneficiaries of the UEP, you also have beneficiaries that are no longer FLDS.
I think people who worked hard and contributed to the UEP should see the fruits of that hard work. Ideological warfare will only lessen the chances of that happening.
Z,
"like any good scientist, I will wait until I hear a second opinion, or in the case of the moon walk, see another government do it"
As one "good scientist" to another, I can understand that the narrative of American astronauts would be dubious. I've heard that the Chinese are developing a space program. Let's wait and ask them. Then there is the matter of a second opinion, always a good idea, when it's a matter of opinion. Whose were you thinking of?
Ziggy
If you really don't believe that man walked on the moon, then gullible is not the word I'd use for you.
Yeah, Nasa staged this big huge spectacle seen by millions of people of this very large rocket taking off from Cape Kennedy. It was all part of an elaborate ruse by our government.
Been to a shrink to check for paranoid delusions lately?
Then there's that continuing ruse of an international space station. I guess I'll have to confront the father of my daughter's friend to see how they pulled that one off.
Those Nasa guys - they're such tricksters.
Ziggy
BTW, I'm not anti-religious, I'm anti-stupidity.
Ron,
Obviously removing Wisan, or any other $200+/hr SOB would reduce the costs of the UEP. Perhaps you didn't realize it, but for sixty years prior to Wisan, no one was being paid to run the trust. It was merely a land holding trust for faithful members of the FLDS church. And hopefully in the future it will return to that.
heavenhelpus,
I highly suggest you get off Prozac, it obviously has been a hallucinogen to you. Remember it is "LDS" not "LSD", (but I guess either way you see visions. :)
Pliggy
Actually, after what Wisan has said he really should consider stepping down. A trust really does rely on "trust." It's clear he's lost the trust of a majority of the beneficiaries.
I don't know about it being any cheaper. You've got non-FLDS beneficiaries who I'm certain aren't too wild about having a FLDS trustee.
You're going to have to have some sort of professional and no matter what they'll cost money. I suspect the days of it being FLDS only are past.
Ron, I know that the idea that non-FLDS are beneficiaries has become the gospel truth to you. After all, Judge Lindberg made it so. The little problem with that is, the original wording of the Trust documents doesn't provide for non-FLDS beneficiaries, hence her ruling on that matter is subject to challenge.
But go on, keep living in your fantasy. What is, isn't always what will turn out to be. Look at how the Texas raid turned out. The judge's ruling that all children were in imminent danger was (gasp) overruled eventually...
So we'll have to just wait and see. But like I said, if you like building elaborate arguments on shifting premises, keep right ahead doing that; it just makes you look foolish.
Ziggy
The problem you have is that the time to appeal the reformation of the trust has past.
The time to challenge that ruling is over.
As to foolishness, I'm not the one that believes man didn't walk on the moon because some felonious Prophet said it.
Keep drinking the cool aid Ziggy.
Ron,
Did ztg get under your skin a little? lol
I have no idea if man walked on the moon, I was told they did by my teachers in the FLDS, I was wondering who the felonious prophet of Ziggies told him that?
To say it is "too late" to recoup the original trust, does not make it so. It is not "too late" for anything, except for Wisan to continue to pillage it, which is what he was supposedly there to keep the FLDS leaders from doing.
Remember? If he dropped his bill to 50 grand, rather than 2 million, then you MIGHT have had an argument comparing apples.
Pliggy
Remember the old adage it takes two to tango. I don't think Wisan run up fees just for the sake of sticking it to the FLDS.
From what I'm reading it appears that Lindberg thinks that a whole lot of the mess will settle.
If it doesn't I think one thing Lindberg could do is to consider a new trustee that isn't viewed as such a polarizing figure. Finding a consensus candidate would do a lot of healing.
I think the UEP is stuck with the fees. How it raises the money is a separate issue.
If you really want to be a leader in your community encourage them to settle. It's in everyone's best interests.
Pliggy
Remember Wisan may not be your friend, but just because he's not you're friend doesn't necessarily make him your enemy.
Just some advice from an old fart.
Betty said...
I'm not interested in emotional recountings of history, compared with being able to read actual court documents, rericson. The UEP Trust website is not Wisans personal blog, it's a repository of what happened in Lindberg's court room.
But don't let facts get in the way!
Betty, the 1942 Declaration of Trust and the 1998 Amended and Restated Declaration of Trust are court documents also!
But,oh ya I forgot "don't let the facts get in the way"!!
ron said: "I think the UEP is stuck with the fees. How it raises the money is a separate issue."
You mean the "Reformed UEP" don't you ron?
Cheese
Yes, you're right. However, it mainly because the FLDS did not appeal the ruling by Lindberg taking over the trust.
I'll be the first to agree that the trust appears to be a trust created by a religious entity to benefit its own members.
The problem is that non FLDS have a problem with apostate members losing all that they worked for and then consecrated to the trust.
Granted that is as rericson would say a "cultural" issue, but it's that doesn't make it a non-issue.
cheese and others, you are in a continual state of confusion about law. If something was entered into law in a court, nothing can change the fact that it happened. f you want to go read it and find out what it says, you really could do that and stop hallucinating what it says. Then, after having read it, you could argue that it is wrong and should be reversed. Arguing that it doesn't exist is bizarre and illogical in the extreme.
Must be 'cultural'.
Circular logic.
Everyone within the group is honorable and honest. Anyone who has left the group is lying, probably sleeping around and maybe on drugs.
The leader holds all the money.
The leader decides who has real faith, and thus who stays and who goes.
Anyone who does not have real faith does not deserve any of the money.
We can tell that those who have left do not deserve the money because...
Everyone within the group is honorable and honest. Anyone who has left the group is lying, probably sleeping around and maybe on drugs.
Right. I see now. Problem solved.
This thread of thought leads you to the conclusion that the leader can decide who gets the money and who is lying. He cannot be corrupt by definition.
Ron, I know you want to call a fait accompli, you know like, well, there weren't any WMDs, but it's too late to back out now...
Like Pliggy said it's never too late to right a wrong, and if Wisan did indeed perpetrate a fraud or if there is some other legal question having to do with the facts of the case, such as egregious omissions of facts, etc., then the ruling will have to be reconsidered. You don't proceed with an execution if new DNA evidence exonerates a fellow...
As for the 60s moon walks, there have been TV shows, documentaries, and a book written debunking the whole thing. But for a quick debunk watch http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmQ8UPekwTU&feature=related
Cheese
If i can explain....
I can self settle a trust.
That means that I can determine who is "in" and who is "out."
However, if 20 years later I don't step up and say this is what I intended, I lose the right to make the self determination I had when I created the trust.
This is analogous to the situation the FLDS find themselves in now. They may have intended for non-FLDS to have no stake in the trust; however, they lost their right to claim that when they failed to contest the lawsuit taking over control of the trust from FLDS leadership.
I'm not saying it's fair, but that's the law.
Personally, I know that the FLDS are hard working folks. To the extent that they worked hard and contributed to the trust they should not be deprived of the fruits of their labors.
However, no one gave me any powers to decide anything.
Ziggy
Come down to Houston and I'll try to convince you that man really walked on the moon.
Maybe I won't succeed, but at least I'll try!!
I think Ron misses the point regarding Wisan and his fiduciaryship. You see, it matters not whether Wisan holds hard feelings against the FLDS or not -- although if he did it would certainly disqualify him. The issue lies largely with the idea of having a non-FLDS fiduciary in the first place, trying to solve the internal problems of the church, which an outsider could never understand, and would spend outrageous sums of money trying to solve, and still getting nowhere.
It would be like replacing the pope with an atheist, and expecting all the catholics to be happy. Not going to happen.
Ziggy
Really I understand. There are a lot of things in life that I truly dislike but that I have no control over.
Your reality is that you have a non FLDS trustee who views his relationship with you as "warfare."
Welcome to the cold hard slap of reality.
The question is what are you going to do with your reality? Are you going to fight to the bitter end? Well then be prepared for the assets of the UEP to be severely depleted.
If you choose to look for a solution that will in the long term benefit your group, then you'd better be prepared to accept some things that in the short term you find unacceptable, but in the long term help the FLDS prosper.
You guys are free to choose your course, but up to now you've not chosen the best course.
You can fight the issue of control or our can work to find a solution that benefits your group.
The choice is up to you.
The problem you're ignoring is that while FLDS members make up the majority of the beneficiaries of the UEP, you also have beneficiaries that are no longer FLDS."
Kind of like the Mulligan walther granted Childress!
$peaking of the Texa$ me$$, I have a feeling they will $olve the UEP problem$.
Meanwhile, it is evident that the funds donated to the FLDS have been more than sufficient to cover all costs for the UEP AND buy properties in various locations throughout the US and Canada.
The increase in food costs resulting from the trust takeover, and added legal expenses of late, do throw a small kink in the budget, but if they hold off on buying more properties I anticipate they'll weather the storm.
The entire move to take over the trust was not something the FLDS asked for, it was obviously an effort initiated by a group of outsiders to control / damage the FLDS (Mark is on that list).
Much like the prosecution of any member seldom produces one ID'd as a victim which shows appreciation to the prosecutor for saving them, it's total bull to say the AG was looking out for the members when he took over the trust.
With that in mind, I find it rather lame to even think the state is looking to settle the mess JUST because the FLDS is open to discussion on it now.
That is not why the state put everything on hold to hash out details in an effort to reach a settlement.
I'm not FLDS Ron, and wouldn't want to be. However, when governments start taking food out of children's mouths, and evicting families, out of a vendetta or for political gain, I have to stand up and notice. Every freedom-loving American should be outraged at the persecution the FLDS are enduring.
However, if 20 years later I don't step up and say this is what I intended, I lose the right to make the self determination I had when I created the trust.
ron said: "This is analogous to the situation the FLDS find themselves in now. They may have intended for non-FLDS to have no stake in the trust; however, they lost their right to claim that when they failed to contest the lawsuit taking over control of the trust from FLDS leadership."
who you been listening to ron? How do YOU know anything about anybody contesting or not? Did you hear it on the news? Did Wisan tell you? And why should there be a "stepping up twenty years later to state a position" when the Declaration of Trust states it and should govern the trust? What was the 1998 Amended and Restated Declaration of Trust if it wasn't a "stepping up and saying something"? If you actually had some info on the Dan Fischer, Lindberg, Wisan, Hoole Bros. little round robin party they had goin' then I know you'd think different, but when all you have to go on is all the gobilty gook that Laurel and Hardy (I mean Laurie and Harley) throw out I guess I can't blame you!
ron said: "The problem you're ignoring is that while FLDS members make up the majority of the beneficiaries of the UEP, you also have beneficiaries that are no longer FLDS.
I think people who worked hard and contributed to the UEP should see the fruits of that hard work. Ideological warfare will only lessen the chances of that happening."
The thing that you're ignoring is that the Declaration of Trust made no allowance for anyone to be a member of the trust who was not also a 'faithful member' of the FLDS Church. So what's your point?
BTW: The 'fruits of their labor' is also addressed in the Declaration.
" I don't think Wisan run up fees just for the sake of sticking it to the FLDS."
That is definately not how I see it. He even billed the Trust for doing media interviews, let alone his "warfare" billing. He didn't get Title to Harker Farms for helping get business startups going, that is for sure.
Of course we can't rewind the tape, but if Wisan was anything close to a friend, he would have resigned long ago. Why? Because he, and everyone else involved could obviously see that the takeover was bogus to begin with from the FLDS standpoint. It was his ego that kept him on, if it wasn't the paycheck.
It also seems the sky has been the limit to the amount of billing ol' Wisan could create. I mean, if there was a ton of gold in the stream and you knew you only had a few years to pick it up before other people caught on to what you had going, wouldn't you be working overtime pulling it out? Well that's apparently what Wisan and his lawyers were doing. Making sure every hour of their day was billed in some way or another.
It's insane that Lindberg didn't put an upper cap on the hours per year or something. Any client would never pay an accountant that much, which makes all the more case for fraud, due to the unreasonable billing hours.
Some of the residents have said on this blog that Wisan was dividing little plots of land in half, and they couldn't tell what in the world he was doing that for -- it was all for the billing hours.
cheese
The reason the FLDS are stuck in federal court trying to litigate constitutional religious issues is that they have lost their right to appeal Lindberg's orders.
The trust says what Lindberg says it says. The beneficiaries are who Lindberg determinied.
Cry and whine all you want but that's just the way it is.
The FLDS can keep beating their head against the proverbial unfairness wall but they're only depleting their trust when they do it.
Pliggy is right - you can't rewind the tape. You have to take the cards your dealt and move forward.
I found this on another blog and want to share it...for no related reason to this...I just like it...
"One of the most stringent conditions all angels must meet, other than double-advanced harp playing and skydiving abilities (not necessarily at the same time), is that they must not allow themselves to feel hurt or rejected by the choices made by others, no matter how much they've done for them nor how great their love."
A couple of random thoughts about Wisan's billing...
1. Perhaps he's of the school that says, "bill as much and as high as possible to give yourself room to negotiate down to a fair ammount."
2. I don't know what evidence exists, but perhaps, if it can be shown that Wisan, et al, really were in cahoots, from the outset, there can, and will be, a reversal of the original/initial court intervention? Maybe Ron can address that?
3. Folks keep saying that the FLDS community/trustees/advisory group have failed to speak up for so long...but then there is this little ripple of voices saying they were there, they did try to speak, and the judge refused to hear them....perhaps someone can tell more about that, because it is certainly not reflected on Wisan's web site for the trust, nor is it reflected in the court orders and filings....
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laurie, the belief in marriage as a legal definition is based on circular logic.
I think it was no mistake that Plato chose a circle as an example of a perfect form, i.e. a self-evident truth, a center of gravity, etc.
If the state weren’t in cahoots with Wisan, they might arrest him for "unlawfully dealing with property by a fiduciary." As it is, they’re winking at his looting the trust, as their intent is to destroy it. The whole thing is shameful.
The truth will prevail site has just posted an overview of the incredible looting that went on:
http://www.truthwillprevail.org
Some tidbits:
85 thousand trying to grab up that Canadian school and properties.
507 thousand to survey the Short Creek subdivision.
1.7 million to his attorney.
1/3 million to himself.
42 thousand for his apostate board, plus another 1/4 million to Jethro Barlow for "consultation."
10 thousand for documents seized at the YFZ ranch.
3 million in addition unpaid fees.
This is criminal, no other word for it.
I want a part time job putting notices on folk's doors that will pay me 68k in three years....
I see SUBDIVIDE is a commonly used word there.
Does that apply to land or people?
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makes one wonder how much, of how many, "fees" he paid, he got kick backs from....
And even though it's not much, just what were all those board members getting paid for? I sit on all sorts of boards with all sorts of people, and most times I'm lucky to get mileage reimbursed....
and he paid 10k to "pursue" a subpoena for YfZ documents? Pursue???
I mean I can understand a reasonable rate, with an annual cap, for his "services", even if they weren't wanted...Short of a court order, reversing his appointment, paying a reasonable fee is probably money well spent, just to get rid of him....
but this? He was running amok....
laurie...
z isn't a "plyg"...And I have to say, I do agree on some of his comments, some of the time...
but he's one of those folks who really wants a cabin in the woods of Montana or Wyoming where he gets staples plane-dropped in twice a year....
Do a search for "zeitgeist the movie"...or
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0kHhc67GopM&feature=related
far be it from me to think anyone's world view bizarre.....
heavenhelpus said...
the girls are almost ripe for marriage, the boys will be gone soon, and your heart is sore, tired, like a stone in your chest, and people don't look at you so funny, but they remember, god how they never forget, and then one day you look in the mirror, and you look just like them, you talk just like them, you smile just like them, so you take another little pill and live another day.
Heaven help us indeed. Thank you for having the courage to speak up. I know many women whose story mirrors yours so closely that I wouldn’t be able to tell the difference if I didn’t know the author. I have spoken with some of the people in that community who are absolutely terrified that the FLDS will regain control of the trust and evict them again. It is the people like you who have the courage to speak up and tell the real story that will protect the truly innocent people in that community.
First Amendment said...
"The truth will prevail site has just posted an overview of the incredible looting that went on:"
After you consider how easily the FLDS lie while in a court room and under oath, I think we can discount anything they put up on the propaganda website fairly easily.
He was running amok....
--------
Appears he dissipated about ten percent of the value of the trust, with about one or two percent of his expenditures benefiting the beneficiaries. Running amok is right.
"...I think we can discount anything they put up on the propaganda website fairly easily."
You're discounting the validity of data provided by Wisan BECAUSE it is posted on TWP?
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Does that make you his ugly step-mother? lol
pliggy-
BEHAVE!!!!!!
poena
Wisan has to disclose this information so even though it's on Truth Will Prevail, I'll bet it's true and accurate.
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laurie-
you behave, too!!!
this "who can spit the furthest' crap is silly!
And I told you on another thread, don't underestimate pliggy's learning and intelligence....
Pliggy is pretty darn smart.....
I think I'm going to pop some popcorn and watch Pliggy and Laurie got at it.
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Ron....great minds really do think alike...sort of...I just left you a response to your other message...told you not to buy popcorn, the curtain had fallen....
Laurie...for what it's worth...pliggy spent a great deal of time trying to teach me all sorts of things he thought I should understand about the world monetary system(s)...try as I did to avoid it, I absorbed a little...so I bounced things off my ex brother in law, who happens to be a world class economist...and even he was impressed that a lay person had such a sophisticated set of observations....
Y'all 'spit' all y'all want...but just don't ever think pliggy is some dumb poke in a plaid shirt.....
I consumed an entire can of Topsy popcorn just reading about how Wisan came to be owner of Harker Farm and all the work billed back to the Trust to reach that point.
He's in a situation now. Does he sell it for a profit (as he's been working towards), hold on to it for years, or sell it back to the trust to break even and clear that mess up some day (maybe soon!)?
Isn't there some sort of conflict, ethical if nothing else, about getting appointed trustee and then using the position for self gain?...Like he could have taken out a mortgage on the property, no? Then it would still be owned by the UEP, even if it had a note on it....
But setting it up for himself to buy seems a bit problematic....
That is a question for whatever authority licenses CPA's, and I suspect it could be answered by them some day!
"The state doesn't have the wherewithal to pay me so I have to find money myself."
Bruce Wisan, 11-14-08
:)
Just for the humor of it;
"Certainly the objective of the attorney general's office has never, ever changed, and that is to protect the property of the trust..."
Tim Bodily, Utah assistant attorney general 11-14-08
Isn't there some sort of conflict, ethical if nothing else, about getting appointed trustee and then using the position for self gain?...
---------
It seems criminal. But he's got the judge saying it's okay to steal from polygamists, so I suspect he'll get away with it.
It is criminal. It's like having your car (or your kid!) in hawk. Meanwhile you are PAYING them rent.
The FLDS are paying Wisan's ultra-high legal expenses to fight them. Talk about conflict of interest. Utah is forcing the FLDS to carry their own millstone to the river.
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Why don't monogamists write books about how great monogamy is? For that matter, why don't the abused ones write about how terrible monogamy is, and all about the horrible things that go on in the monogamous culture. Oh, they probably don't write about, because there's not enough polygamists that will buy their books, to make themselves feel good about themselves. Oops!
Laurie,
I dislike some of the names you've called people on this list, especially Rericson, but overall, I crack up everytime I read one of your postings. Whether your words are True, or False, I have no idea. I'm just glad somebody isn't "keeping sweet" despite a history of being told to do so. Personally, I don't feel available to me the freedom that you take, so I'm glad you do, because you are doing an awful lot of people who don't want to go where angels fear to tread a big favor.
The fact that I am coming to Regina's defense because I see her being attacked for just being herself, doesn't mean I agree with her methods. I find it particularly patronizing that Regina is always "explaining" Pliggy. No adult wants to be explained. Or if they do, then they are not yet an adult regardless of their age.
Okay...Just for edification....I come to pliggy's defense because I choose to. In fact, I think it embarrases him. And no one has ever, ever asked me to.
Pliggy is the age of one of my children. And he and I have talked a great deal...in some ways he brings out my maternal instincts...
Not those of a mother to a small child, but those of a mother to an adult child...
Silly? Maybe...so what?
I've found that I really enjoy his company...despite our enormous idealogical differences...
And pliggy, like many of his fellow FLDS is very retiring about his own intelligence, ideas, creativity, kindness, etc.
It is just not in their countenance to brag, or even tout their own abilities...
And I find myself feeling very defensive of not just pliggy, but the community's people as a whole when folks are nasty or sarcastic about them....probably because I know that the "turn the other cheek"...they bear their hurt quietly and with tremendous reserve...but it doesn't mean that words don't hurt, or offend....
So, anyway, my posts about, or on behalf of pliggy, are initiated by me...and not endorsed by him...
And y'all will just have to get over it...*smile*
cause I'm a pushy old broad and I don't care if folks like it, or not...I just don't want you to ever think pliggy asked me to say a damn thing!!!!
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Laurie, there are plenty of books and movies about "true stories" of monig women who suffered abuse by husbands and boyfriends.
Just watch the Lifetime channel.
The stories are very similiar.
So by your logic, we can come to the same conclusion about monogamist relationships being inherently "abusive"
Laurie,
heavenhelpus did not identify him/herself as the subject of the stream of conscious post you're talking about....for all I know it was you, or a friend of yours posting as an alter ego, in a very seventies style of writing.
And, if you didn't notice, in this thread I jumped on pliggy for unecessarily sniping at you, and I jumped on you for your return...
Although not always successful, I am trying to stop the nastiness on my part. I can't make anyone else adopt the same, but it sure would be nice. Ad hominem attacks and name calling does nothing but rile folks and get in the way of any kind of real discussion....
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Larie, Cut it out. You make yourself look like an ass when you behave so badly.
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Laurie, Honestly, you are ridiculous.
First of all, you didn't see me say aythig, one way or the other to that person. Secondly, as you have pointed out, I am not responsible for what others may, or may not post.
As for beig paid, I was actually wondering what the AG's office was funneling to you?
Laurie, you mean like this book?
"The Myth of Monogamy: Fidelity and Infidelity in Animals and People (Paperback)"
-Amazon
"Then I suggest pliggy write a book about his brilliant economic plan."
Plggy,
Don't bother. If it involves more than 2 calculations it's then "magaical numbers" to her.
*****
"Irene Spencer doesn't know Carolyn, Susan doesn't know Dorothy, Jenny doesn't know Susan, and so on. So how come they all tell the same stories in their books? Sure, the locations are different, the characters have different names, etc., but the abuse they ALL describe is exactly the same.
And in case you don't know, most of the women listed above are from different polygamous sects.
"Splain" that."
Brilliant argument! So the thousands of books published about spousal abuse within monogamist relationships, by authors that meet your criteria above, is proof monogamy is the problem?
kbp
Then I suggest pliggy write a book about his brilliant economic plan."
Plggy,
Don't bother. If it involves more than 2 calculations it's then "magaical numbers" to her.
To your credit, I've never known you to engage in such an ad hominem attack. Frankly, I'm a little surprised.
As to your argument about multiple sourcing....
The question is whether the stories told are credible. The fact that people who don't know one another yet tell a similar story bolsters their credibility.
The leap to whether polygamy is the problem or not is a whole other question.
One of the reasons that I believe a number of the ex FLDS stories are credible are their similarity.
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similarity yes. As in they were all in polygamous marriages.
And Ron, you give too much credit to Carolyn and Wall, the only contemporary exFLDS wives bookwriters, if I'm not mistaken...(and Wall was in a monogamous marriage!). The others, mentioned by Laurie, belong to other sects, and are not relevant in the FLDS narrative.
Yes, too much credit to Carolyn, ignoring the thousands of other happily married polygamous wives in the FLDS.
If you are looking for spousal abuse to rant about, go talk to some of the good folk in your local trailer park community.
problem is laurie, monogamists don't want women their own age. That's why they keep marrying women that are younger than them. And then have affairs with interns, and watch 18 year olds perform in porn films. Those damn hormones that men have. They're all going to hell.
Ron,
Evidently you must have missed her responses to my full explanation on how 3 wives could work in a community and every male born would have them eventually.
****
"One of the reasons that I believe a number of the ex FLDS stories are credible are their similarity."
Count how many stories have sold from ex-members of the FLDS (I doubt you had to take your socks off to count all of them!). Using the estimated population of 10,000 in the FLDS, do you believe similar stories of abuse could come from most any community of such size?
Has Dan Fisher blamed the FLDS for making him abuse his wives?
Yeah the stories all have the same formula.
Polyg wife, husband beat me, raped, forced to ride bulls, lived in Short creek, black eyes, kids beaten, wore funny clothes, blah, blah, blah.
Sure, they are all tales of horrible abuse. Of course they are going to sound similiar. If a happy polygamous wife wrote a book, it would be boring and not sell.
Did Dan Fischer abuse his wives? Is it he said, she said?
In a Patriarcial Community where MAN is All Knowing,Children raised in Households where Everyone follows the same "rules". Then most likely those in control lose their abulia.
If every male is raised to beleive they are a gpd and have total control over the female and all decisions are made by the male. Yes you will get Abusive behavour. What you end up with is males who continually practice recidivism.
Well howdy, I didn't realize I was soo popular! LOL
Should I ignore Regina to show my maturity, or explain the US Dollar to show my missive intelligence? Ha ha ha
I know for a fact that "heavenhelpus" is not FLDS, but rather writing a hypothetical based on an imaginary scinario. So I replied in kind... "swallowing pill"
I know several men that I work with who are divorced, and they tell me the stories that their ex wife said, and it was totally blown out of proportion. Our safety coordinator (I call her mother Ruth :) Told me a story today about someone in her family getting a divorce and the extreme exaggertations that went on. I have NO DOUBT that it is typical in divorces to exaggerate the "abuse", it makes your reason for leaving sound better.
The only difference between a woman who leaves a polygynist relationship and one who leaves a monogamist one, is the BOOK DEAL. I tell those who email me with stories of abuse that they have suffered, that the only problem is they weren't a polygamist, if they only were they could make money on book deals, their stories make Carolyn, and Elissa's books sound like nursery stories.
If every male is raised to beleive they are a gpd and have total control over the female and all decisions are made by the male. Yes you will get Abusive behavour.
Yeah, well thank goodness the FLDS isn't like that.
I have NO DOUBT that it is typical in divorces to exaggerate the "abuse", it makes your reason for leaving sound better.
Oh heck yeah! My wife admitted to me that she exaggerated the "abuse" she suffered at the hands of her first husband during their divorce. They both did!
"heavenhelpme" just took passages from various anti-plyg hate literature and strung them together to make one long rant!
Pliggy,
Hiya, darlin'...
Hope all is well with you! Sorry about the earlier b.s.!
One thought...some of the stories you've heard could very well be books, with or without their marriage status...just most folks don't have the need, or desire for the notariety that writinng their life's story in a book brings. Certaily some of this type of book does a great deal of good for others. I'm sure that is what laurie and other's would argue about Carolyn's saga...'but sometimes, some folk's lives are just too painful for public consumption.....
And, I do think stories written about the many good, successful polygamous marriages ad families would sell, I just don't think most of the FLDS wome have any desire to spread their lives across the world....
And yes, I do notice my typo's and misspelled words "after" I submit them, only sometimes do I bother to fix them. I wud rather bee hookd on foniks eneeway
Harley, yes Fischer did abuse his wives. He admits to it, and cites his own admission as evidence that fathers in the FLDS abuse their wives in general.
http://freetoseparate.blogspot.com/2008/08/fischer-guilty-as-charged.html
I'm not FLDS, but if I were, my advice to Fischer would be "Speak for yourself, bud."
Regina, I agree, but none would sell like ones that included "Polygamy" in the name.
Every divorcee has had as much abuse as Carolyn had. Hers was mostly in her imagination to justify leaving, same with Elissa. There has been abuse among the FLDS, but it is not sanctioned or tolerated when discovered. There are women who have been abused who are still living in the FLDS, but the abuser has been excommunicated.
And there have been women who have left the FLDS with thier children and didn't "Escape", Mary Mackert wrote a book as well, and when she left we had a big going away party for her sons when we were at Alta Academy.
Pliggy,
"Should I ignore Regina to show my maturity,"
I wasn't exactly referring to your own perspective, which is up to you. I was referring to myself. I feel that I am being patronized when I read these explanations. I am quite capable of forming my own impressions of people, and I don't need to have them explained to me by a 3rd party. That is all I meant.
And yes. You are popular.
Harley, yes Fischer did abuse his wives. He admits to it, and cites his own admission as evidence that fathers in the FLDS abuse their wives in general.
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ztgstmv
Perhaps studying history as far back as even before a God was invented, you would see from the caveman forward. MAN had an insatiable ego and evidently still does today.
I would never say every man abuses a wife or children. But within patriarchical societies, where all females are taught to be subservient with consequences if they aren't, then you have abuses.
harley...why gooly gee...now I understand why some Roman Catholic men I've known are abusive...and several of those Baptist fellows I've seen walking with wives with black eyes!!!
It's because they belong to patriarchal religions!!!!!
Thank you so much for clearing that all up....now if you've got a way to eliminate patriarchal religions.....
that would be 'golly gee'....
BTW, on this subject, I have slowly changed my mind about where the status of polygamy ought to be. I once believed that polygamy should be decriminalized. I now believe it should be legalized. I no longer hold with the argument that because legalization is inconvenient for the existing social structure therefore decriminalization is better. We are talking about right and wrong, not what is convenient. If polygamy is a legitimate way of life, then it should be legal, and society should accomodate it, not the other way around.
Brooke, would you consider asking Anne Wilde to address this proposition in writing, in one of the formats available to her: "Polygamy should be legalized, now." Thanks.
harley, "patriarchical [sic] societies" you mean like the trailer parks? The 'hood? Hollywood? Where are all the wife beaters are?
I looked real hard and I didn't see any black eyes on the women of the FLDS Trent snapped shots of. The CPS in Texas hasn't shown the kids from YFZ were physically abused by their parents either.
There's nothing wrong with patriarchal societies. Everything that is bad comes from the individual. Leave responsibility where it lies.
silver...I don't intend to be patronizing...to anyone...well, not usually, anyway...
And I make my comments in a very general sense...if they don't fit, or aren't applicable to you, then don't read them as though you're the intended audience, because truth is, you probably aren't!
I get pretty tired of folks villainizing me...or making assumptions out of thin air about what I write, or often, what I don't write...
silver, I'm of a vastly different opinion. I don't think marriage, as an institution, should be recognized by government period. The definitions of marriage vary too much among the numerous cultures and lifestyles in this country, for the government to try to define in any concrete terms that will not infringe on personal liberties. The government does best by just staying out of religous/cultural matters.
silver, in theory, I agreee with you about legalization. In practical terms, decriminalizing is a more appropriate first measure.
In so doing, it would remove the threat from those practicing the Principle in good faith...and it would not be an enormous burden on the already stretched tax dollar...
Certainly an incremental segue into a legalized status, would probably be workable...
But I am growing ever more conscious of how and where we spend our dollars...If it was a trade between legalizing polygamy and planting wild flowers on the highways, well, hell, go for legalization...if the trade is between muchneeded social services for children, seniors, handicapped, all those populations for whom services seems to be non-priority...well, legalization of polygamy will have to take a back burner and folks will just have to live with decriminalization...
were that it was so easy, eh?
z.-
you're talking about an ideal world where we are at ground zero in making laws and regulations for enforcement...that's simply not where we are...and many, many laws are involved with the status of marriage and many benefits and responsibilities are tied to that same legal status....
and there are those persons who are not religious, and don't give a hoot about cultural practices...they want the recognition and legal benefits of a licensed relationship...and as much as you want your views respected, those folks are also entitled to have their perspective respected, as well....
Calm down everyone. This blog is getting volatile. And you don't want to get Laurie's jeans any tighter than they already are. Someone really stuck a burr in her shorts at a bad time, right when she is already enduring a particularly bad episode of PMS. Remember, folks have been done in by women suffering this malady and the courts forgave 'em on account of they weren't criminally responsible for their actions under such duress.
Now bear in mind, (let's use Laurie's warped logic here about painting everyone with the same paintbrush) she comes from the LeBaron clan who are notorious for murdering who they don't like....So I'm just saying walk tenderly around this old gutter snipe of a woman, cuz she may come a-calling.
Bye the bye, I'm related to the LeBarons too, so I'm allowed to spout about her.
There is more than one form of abuse ztgstmv. The kind of abuse which leaves no outward mark.
However it's is just as painful as sexual of physical abuse.
I agree with Z about Marriage. The government should protect individual rights, not group rights. The big halabaloo about Gay marriage is because the homo's want to control the governments definition of "marriage". In a free society the only purpose for the government when it came to marriage is the contract, and census purposes.
Most people do not realize the difference between legalizing and decriminalizing, they think it is the same thing. Until you tell them it is not legal to have children. Legalization is government permission, decriminalization is MYOB. (By the way, that was the motto written on the early US coins :)
rericson, I'm frankly tired of "married" people somehow having some privileged status. It's discriminatory to any one who's not legally married. Our rights are individual rights, not group rights. As pliggy(?) wisely said on Kurt's blog, whenever rights are group rights, even groups of two, people are discriminated against. It's time to stop the discrimination.
harley, you're way out of your league when you start to talk about psychological abuse, a thing that is so difficult to measure (or define), most courts don't even give the notion the time of day.
There was a recent case in point where the Supreme Court of Texas threw out a law suit against a church over "mental distress." The court didn't want to slide down that slippery slope, as every joan, trick, and mary would start screaming "mental distress" and religion as we know it would crumble apart.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25423465/
But hey, if you think the notion non-physical abuse sounds good to you, and helps to prop up your arguments against the hated "patriarchy," rant on.
hadn't noticed that pliggy chimed in about the legalization of polygamy issue. I totally agree, I think it's an insult to think I have to grovel to some stranger in a county clerk's office or court room, asking permission to marry, as if they were one of the priesthood.
Government's involvement in certifying marriage is nothing less than usurpation of religion, removing God, and inserting government.
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Regina-you're right. I'll stop taking these things personally.
I'm aware that most people in plural marriages don't support legalization for the reasons Z and Pliggy have already given. Unfortunately I'm no good at conversations that involve too much libertarian ideology, I can't follow it.
Too much libritarian ideology? Don't read any of the Federalist Papers written by our fourth President( the guy who wrote much of the Constitution) there is some REAL libritarian ideology.
The government getting out of marriage, except for record keeping, IS in effect "legalizing" it.
pliggy, et al,
Unfortunately I suppose the idea, at least for your position that government should have no part of marriage, is simply not practical.
For the same reasons that legalizing polygamy poses enormous bureaucratic problems, so would the process of the state extricating itself from any involvment with licensed marriage(s). The entitlements alone would tie up government for years in an attempt to fairly remove any ties to marriage.
And, I suppose for those parties who want to dissolve a marrige, who both ascribe to a religious belief that addresses divorce, things would be/could be worked out.
There are a whole lot of folks who need the oversight of the state, to wit the courts, when they go about the task of dissolving their marriage and determining the allocation of assets and care and custody of minor children.
Also, without the oversight of the court, some religious dissolutions would be highly suspect as to their fairness to both, or all, parties. For instance an Orthodox Jewish Get, or divorce, is apt to be extremely biased toward the husband, particularly in claims of infidelity. On the other hand, a Wiccan dissolution may unfairly favor the wife in disagreements about child rearing....
Then we have religious groups who simply do not allow divorce, say the Roman Catholics, for instance. Without secular oversight and empowerment, a woman would have to simply walk away from everything, with no hopes of any equitable redistribution of the assets of the marriage.
As much as the state and religion must be seperate, there has to be an element of state oversight for those aspects of our social structure that are vulnerable to unfair practice from the perspective of a state/union forged on the belief in equality of all persons.
Laurie, the more I read about the LeBaron group, and it's practices, the more I understand the extraordinary level of anger and hatred for that kind of life that you feel. I know that only those who have actually walked in your shoes will ever know it with the intimacy you do, however, even using one's imagination, one can be reduced to a twitching mess at the thought of living under that kind of rule of life. I am so sorry you, and others, have had to experience that. Ervil amnd his 'apostles' sound pretty horrific!
No one really knows if heavenhelpme was a real person or not. If heavenhelpme were a real person, then Pliggy did some real emotional violence to her.
I believe Pliggy thought it was not a real person but you still need to be mindful about what you say on these comment boards.
Pliggy - if you want to help with your spell checking - use Firefox browser. It has built in spell checking and has saves me from typos all the time.
Meanwhile
Back to the subject at hand....
I'm sure there are a lot of negotiations going on regarding the UEP. Anyone have any info?
Ron in Houston said... Meanwhile
Back to the subject at hand....
I'm sure there are a lot of negotiations going on regarding the UEP. Anyone have any info?
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I doubt that these negotiations will bear fruit. The Truth Will Prevail site just published anther piece, alleging that Dan Fischer is behind everything that the state and Wisan have been doing, beginning with the initial lawsuits. At the bottom are links to the latest filings, including a motion to disqualify the judge that was filed yesterday.
"I'm sure there are a lot of negotiations going on regarding the UEP. Anyone have any info?"
From the horse's mouth; "The AG initiated it".
I can think of 2 reasons the AG would initiate such;
1. To put in a show of good faith efforts in resolving the mess; or
2. To keep the fed's from digging into his mess.
The former would be SOP in most similar type cases, and could also be a secondary reason if there are other reasons.
The latter looks to be the most likely reason to me.
The record of who all met together before the Trust takeover started (AG, Fisher...), information leaking out from the November depositions, questionable funding sources for operation of the SOB, the fact they're saving the Trust by breaking it into parts from day one, land ownership that appears unethical, records from the AG's office assembled to show WHY they are moving to split the trust (quite a tale they wrote), the collateral damage inflicted on the original beneficiaries (drastic increases in food supplies now)...
and most of all,
...the federal courts will remove all control the AG and his chosen judge presently hold.
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