Safety Net forms committees
At the last Safety Net Committee meetings, the group organized into committees. Here are the committees, names of co-chairs and what their immediate plans are:
COORDINATING SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Pat Merkley and Chelsea Gambles
--Build a website
--Coordinate with and supporting the other subcommittees
--Coordinate training to all interested communities
--Coordinate diversity training for all local professionals (i.e., medical, teachers, etc)
--Fund raising
--Promote research associated with each subcommittee
--Obtain video conferencing equipment
--Update and dispense monthly referrals to the groups
COMMUNITY SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Lawrence Barlow and Lloyd Pendleton
--Revise The Primer
--Assist with a Needs Assessment to all the groups
--Set a date for and organize a Community Information Fair where interested groups are invited to be shown available local resources
--Assist with needs for the new library (in southern Utah)
--Organize Victim's Advocate Trainings for each group
--Organize an ongoing Speaker’s Bureau (for cultural sensitivity training to local agencies)
--Meet with DCFS (to promote cultural sensitivity training)
WOMEN SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Chelsea Gambles and Mary Batchelor
--Establish a Safety Plan Protocol for those who want to separate from the Fundamentalist culture.
--Determine the number of those women wanting to leave the culture. Discuss the number of women with other groups who have access to women leaving.
--Promote Support Groups for those who want support within the culture.
--Organize and do community outreach to promote Women’s Trauma Support Group for those who could benefit from support.
--Organize a special Task Force to identify those women who need support with the Safety Plan and specific access to resources and case management. (Joni Holmes and Elaine Tyler will be asked to head up this Task Force.)
CHILDREN AND YOUTH SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Stefanie Cosgrove and Shannon Price
--Support the organization of the new Drop in Center in St. George
--Determine the number of the youth wanting to leave the culture. Discuss the number leaving with groups who are involved with the youth leaving and why they have left (i.e., New Frontiers, the marshals, Homeless Youth Resource Center, iworks, etc.)
--Determine the details of why the youth leave, how much input do they have in the process, and how much input does the family of the youth have in the process.
--Promote the Support Groups by identifying and contacting teens who would benefit from support.
--Educational support and accountability, including outreach for tutoring to youth and adults who may need additional educational support.
MULTIDISCIPLINARY SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Jane Irvine and David Dye
--Establish parameters and guidelines of this subcommittee (i.e., by name, who is allowed to attend this subcommittee, what are the specific rules of conduct in discussing the social service cases, should a Release of Information be signed by the specific client, etc.)
--Staff and coordinate specific social service cases.
--Define what the other subcommittees could do to help you.
--Promote research, especially develop early stage indicators for output measurements and internal processes, for measuring success and recognizing and learning from failure.
COORDINATING SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Pat Merkley and Chelsea Gambles
--Build a website
--Coordinate with and supporting the other subcommittees
--Coordinate training to all interested communities
--Coordinate diversity training for all local professionals (i.e., medical, teachers, etc)
--Fund raising
--Promote research associated with each subcommittee
--Obtain video conferencing equipment
--Update and dispense monthly referrals to the groups
COMMUNITY SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Lawrence Barlow and Lloyd Pendleton
--Revise The Primer
--Assist with a Needs Assessment to all the groups
--Set a date for and organize a Community Information Fair where interested groups are invited to be shown available local resources
--Assist with needs for the new library (in southern Utah)
--Organize Victim's Advocate Trainings for each group
--Organize an ongoing Speaker’s Bureau (for cultural sensitivity training to local agencies)
--Meet with DCFS (to promote cultural sensitivity training)
WOMEN SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Chelsea Gambles and Mary Batchelor
--Establish a Safety Plan Protocol for those who want to separate from the Fundamentalist culture.
--Determine the number of those women wanting to leave the culture. Discuss the number of women with other groups who have access to women leaving.
--Promote Support Groups for those who want support within the culture.
--Organize and do community outreach to promote Women’s Trauma Support Group for those who could benefit from support.
--Organize a special Task Force to identify those women who need support with the Safety Plan and specific access to resources and case management. (Joni Holmes and Elaine Tyler will be asked to head up this Task Force.)
CHILDREN AND YOUTH SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Stefanie Cosgrove and Shannon Price
--Support the organization of the new Drop in Center in St. George
--Determine the number of the youth wanting to leave the culture. Discuss the number leaving with groups who are involved with the youth leaving and why they have left (i.e., New Frontiers, the marshals, Homeless Youth Resource Center, iworks, etc.)
--Determine the details of why the youth leave, how much input do they have in the process, and how much input does the family of the youth have in the process.
--Promote the Support Groups by identifying and contacting teens who would benefit from support.
--Educational support and accountability, including outreach for tutoring to youth and adults who may need additional educational support.
MULTIDISCIPLINARY SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Jane Irvine and David Dye
--Establish parameters and guidelines of this subcommittee (i.e., by name, who is allowed to attend this subcommittee, what are the specific rules of conduct in discussing the social service cases, should a Release of Information be signed by the specific client, etc.)
--Staff and coordinate specific social service cases.
--Define what the other subcommittees could do to help you.
--Promote research, especially develop early stage indicators for output measurements and internal processes, for measuring success and recognizing and learning from failure.
163 Comments:
big deal
Brooke, do you know if any FLDS women are attending these meetings? Or is this a group an anti-flds and community people?
The names of two committee chairs were incorrect. I have fixed that.
Caryl,
No FLDS women are currently attending the meetings as far as I know. Lawrence Barlow is an FLDS member, however.
The Safety Net is not anti-FLDS and is supposed to be neutral on polygamy. Some of the women who participate are plural wives from other communities. The committee is supposed to act as a go-between for government and communities, and provide networking services for those who want to remain in their communities and those who want to leave.
We've been hearing reference to "black culture" on the CNN, regarding their response to Prop 8, Obama, etc.
What if a safety net committee were set up with the expressed goal of helping those leaving "the culture" i.e. black culture.
Do you not think the NAACP would be shouting about how this is implicit racism?
Maybe there should be a word for anti-fundamental-ism, like pliggyism.
Why not? In England a new word has emerged of late: "gingerism" which describes the hatred the public has toward red heads. There's a complete movement to address gingerism and everything.
This is no different. Pliggyism is real, but it's not being addressed; it's just being exacerbated by these focus groups.
I see that some are getting it.
Why aren't there "safety net" committees set up for wives and children wanting to leave the Baptist groups? Or, those wanting to leave the "Mormons"? How about the Hari Krishnas, or Scientologists? Or, the Gays?
What about all of those "little girls/boys" who leave or are thrown out of their Mormon, Baptist, Catholic, or other homes because they think THEIR religions are too strict, and they can't go out and do drugs, smoke, stay out late, have sex, etc. Why aren't they called "Lost Boys" or lost girls instead of runaways which many of them are? Why aren't the "Lost Boys" tossed in jail or juvenile detention like other runaways are? Why aren't they labeled for what they are, like everyone else???
Why, why, why...???
Maybe, just maybe, it is because the Baptist, Mormon, Catholic, Scientologist, American Indian and other religions haven't been effectively outlawed because of their religious practices??? Therefore, extraordinary measures have to be taken because of the Government's and Society's ridiculous laws which effectively clams everyone up who could report just what exactly happened in a particular case?
Tell us - just why is it that peyote use can be a part of American Indians religious practices, but plural marriage can't be a part of Mormon Fundamentalist practice?
Politicians, Mormons, hypocrites!
Chris
Chris:
A great big loud Richard Fischer type AMEN!!! to that.
Chris, there are. They are called the Salvation Army, the Volunteers of America, and many, many other things. Don't think that the FLDS are the only ones who have people interested in helping those within it who need help.
Nice try Rebekah, but the difference lies in public funding. Those organizations you mentioned are private organizations not directly and wholy funded by tax dollars.
z- Very, very few charitable organizations operate without public funding. Particularly those who have large service programs.
Catholic Charities, Lutheran Family Services, Salvation Army, and so on, all have enormous amounts of public funding.....most of it is program specific, with fixed guidelines for service.
Public distribution of public human services dollars is often done by putting out RFPs...request for proposals...and a selection committee chooses which proposals appear to best meet the need specified in the RFP.
And, most programs, by design, have specific populations they target/serve.
This program is not specific to the FLDS, it is for all of the independent and community wide polygamist families in the area.
Further, it is not set up specifically to assist those wanting to leave, it is set up to offer support and assistance to those who need help, of one kind or another, that want to remain in their faith and community.
I'm not there, I don't have any knowledge beyond what I read, just like most folks here...but from what I've read, it seems to me, that for once the state is doing the right thing. In part, anyway.
They (the state) are finally recognizing that the fundamentalist Mormon groups, particularly the FLDS, are an entirely different culture and cannot be served adequately, or appropriately by the traditional network of social service providers.
I think this has come about, in large part, because of the untiring efforts of a few women who really do understand the enormous cultural gap and also understand the need to have a bridge in place. How effective they will be is yet to be seen, but it appears they are genuinely trying.
Providing services to those who want to leave is a small but important part of what they intend to do. If I were a FLDS parent and one of my children was just not making it in the community and our family, for whatever reason(s), and right now it made the most sense for him/her to live outside the community, I would much prefer to know that my child was being helped by someone who was not going to tryt o turn my child into my enemy. For amny families, they alredy have other family members living sucessfully outside of the community that they can turn to for support for a child wanting to leave. But not everyone has that. For those that don't, better to have a kind, neutral hand to help than a Dan Fischer supported hand....
Parents and families don't stop loving their children that stray...
By the way, there are similar groups, or divisions of organizations, set up in communities near Amish communities that provide the same kind of services.....
Brooke:
"...Lawrence Barlow is an FLDS member, however."
Blog Post:
COMMUNITY SUBCOMMITTEE:
Co Chairs: Lawrence Barlow and Lloyd Pendleton
--Revise The Primer
--Assist with a Needs Assessment to all the groups
--Set a date for and organize a Community Information Fair where interested groups are invited to be shown available local resources
--Assist with needs for the new library (in southern Utah)
--Organize Victim's Advocate Trainings for each group
--Organize an ongoing Speaker’s Bureau (for cultural sensitivity training to local agencies)
--Meet with DCFS (to promote cultural sensitivity training)
This actually looks like a step in the right direction if it works.
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Rericson:
"I would much prefer to know that my child was being helped by someone who was not going to try to turn my child into my enemy."
Very much agree, but when I see Joni Holm's name listed on a task force, I cringe at the though. She was a Nancy Grace regular with Flora and Carolyn, endorsing the stealing of the children. And she lied repeatedly to my parents about Fawn.
This "Safety Net" is about as polygamy neutral as the "Patriot Act" is terrorist neutral. I won't be pretending it is something that it is not.
Laurie, ever heard of "Global Warming"? Who are the doomsday prophets there?
cheese said...
big deal
===========
Well Cheese, I will agree with you there.
See, they arent addressing the true problems in Utah, they are just window dressing.
Are they recording the names and ages of all girls to moniter their status?
Are they monitering all pregnancies to determine how many fumarase children are born and their attendant cares are met?
Or are they just a big fat PR hole in the wall in which to throw money?
TRUST ME - they will be called on to perform REAL work, and if they arent on it, they may well be dissolved and replaced with a Law & Order RICO crimes unit.
Pliggy....I don't know the names...who they are...what their history is...you do...
Are there others on the group who will curb the more extreme inclinations of the "Flora crowd"?
Does Utah have sunshine laws where the meetings of the committees are open to the public? Are there paople who will attend that will make sure that the process is responsive in good ways and not sensationalist?
I think this can be a really good thing...or at least a spring=board for really good, positive programs to happen, if great care is taken in the set-up...and lots of room for flexibility...to change things if they aren't working....
But I also think it means that good, solid representatives of the target population have to be at the table at every juncture....
Regina,
I do think it can be a benefit, but not if losers like Reality Pilot are influential. His mentality is the same as many in the current "Safety Net".
Just think of that mentality when you read:
"--Determine the number of those women wanting to leave the culture."
AND
"--Determine the number of the youth wanting to leave the culture."
How do they do that, house to house? Seriously, those who leave the FLDS are not victims of the society. Just like Chris said, this is only because the religious practice is illegal, and thus deemed a "terrorist group"
Oh, by the way,
HOWDY from Maayan and Michel's house :)
Looks like "Reality Stamp" (new name for ?) is a close relative to Big Brother.
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Laurie, the questions you should ask are, who is "god", and what is "wicked"?
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laurie: "But humans are more evolved now and science will win the war."
----
keep dreaming. BTW, you obviously haven't seen the other side in the world, you know the 4 billion or so illiterates who live hand-to-mouth, and multiply rapidly, while the scientists go childless.
Pliggy....
Who said global warming is God punishing the wicked sheeple???
I guess for starters it isn't too bad.
What about men and women, like you, who subjugate themselves until they see a vision? Was that peyote, or tequila when you saw the naked man?
(I watched your video, and boy did that make me laugh)
The prophets of junk science like man made "Global Warming" think Gaia, or Darwin, is god, and the "wicked" are humans.
z said..."...you know the 4 billion or so illiterates who live hand-to-mouth, and multiply rapidly, while the scientists go childless."
I don't know any "childless" scientists.
And why do you think "starving people" are a threat to scientists?
Reric, is the Safety Net a defacto government entity? Is it not funded completely with government dollars? How much of it is funded through private contributions? I know for a fact that the Salvation Army gets donations from the public for their operations (I see them occasionally accepting donations in front of Department stores). Nonetheless, if they get funding from the government, I would presume that precludes them from using implicitely prejudicial language in their charter statements.
As I said before, the fact that Safety Net uses prejudicial wording in it's charter statements, and is wholy funded by the government, implies that the government is prejudiced against the fundamentalist mormons -- across the board.
If no one sees or cares about this double standard, than I don't know what to say.
pliggy said..."The prophets of junk science like man made "Global Warming" think Gaia, or Darwin, is god, and the "wicked" are humans."
Hmmm...never heard that before.
Perhaps you could cite a source or two.
Source?
I just said so, that was good enough for you by the "experts" in your film, why not from me?
Laurie... said...
Law & Order RICO Crimes Unit...mamma likes.
obviously a big fan of Hitler!!
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ziggy said: "As I said before, the fact that Safety Net uses prejudicial wording in it's charter statements, and is wholy funded by the government, implies that the government is prejudiced against the fundamentalist mormons -- across the board.
If no one sees or cares about this double standard, than I don't know what to say."
ziggy 'gets it'!! this is why I started with 'big deal'
The 'safety net' is just more of the 'psychological and sociological warfare'
Hola Laurie!!
Pliggy esta de visita en Monterrey, necesitas algun encargo de por aca?
He could take you something mexican.......... for example.......... tequilaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
taran tarara raratan!! tequila!!!
huh)))
sinceramente
sin carinio
Maayan
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Dear grandma Laurie,
For your information polar bears use ice doilies to catch, kill, and eat seals, are you not concerned for the seal population?
You don't have to believe in the global warming religion to be responsible, or concerned about pollution, or conservation of wildlife. The word "conservative" the same as "conservation".
But if you want a film, not unlike your own, but about global warming, there is a guy named Al Gore...
But if you want to hear the experts that know what they are talking about, watch this.
Global warming, or Global governance
And me talking about your film is not a whole lot different than you pretending to represent someon who was FLDS.
It is no wonder Ruth didn't like your propaganda film, you had Carolyn, Penny, and Flora speak for her. You should be ashamed of it.
We know who's side Laurie's on in the culture wars. She's become a high priestess in the sect of those drawing selfish conclusions from a "preponderance of evidence" to affirm her newfound ideology and enforce it's dictates.
One day humans will look back to this time and be amused about how humans once saw some polar ice caps melting and thought, as humans are wont to do, that this must be punishment for our evil, wicked ways. These people worshipped nature in their own enigmatic way, and preached against those who "squandered" nature's resources selfishly. They preached it would be better that every one should not take more than their fair share of the world's resources. This fairness principle should be enforced through what they called a "carbon tax" the proceeds of which would be given to the poor. Eventually this superstitious scheme defeated itself as the high priests extracted more and more tribute from the people, which they would then hand over to unknown exotic foreigners who they deemed more worthy. One day these exotic foreigners attacked and destroyed the lands of the new earth worshippers.
It took several thousands of years for civilization to be restored.
Plig Puppy
How many of your brothers and sisters were born with fumarase Deficiency?
Dad didnt tell you?
Perhaps the Safety net can help those that are.
Say, you wouldnt deny help to handicapped children, would you..?
ziggy snorts:
ztgstmv said...
We know who's side Laurie's on in the culture wars. She's become a high priestess in the sect of those drawing selfish conclusions from a "preponderance of evidence" to affirm her newfound ideology and enforce it's dictates.
=========
And we know whose side you are on zig. Say, arent you glad you didnt get busted in this latest roundup?
Oh, maybe you are, we dont know yet, do we?
Cheese, et al...
When I first read about this committee, my first reaction was negative, and it was to the name....
But I've thought about it since...and, in fact, I've heard the phrase used several times, since...maybe I've heard it previously, in the same context and never even thought about it...who knows...it certainly isn't new....
But anyway, what has occurred to me is that it can be read in a very positive way....
A "safety net" is something that catches you before something bad happens....it is something that protects people....
So it helps women catch the signs of domestic strife early...
It catches the folks who want to leave before they get into trouble and fall on their faces...
it provides knowledge, or resources to the knowledge for parents who may have a child with ADD or AD/HD and didn't know that was the problem....
It can be a really good source for zeroing in on things before they become monsters...
It can be a wonderful place for women to meet and talk and support one another.....
Their mission statement will be telling......
And their guiding principles....
rericson, I don't care if you or Mark Shurtliff or Stamp or Laurie or anybody wants to raise their children on video games. What parents do with their own childrens education is no business of mine, just like what I do with my childrens education and what I try to raise them to is none of anybody elses business. I know that you are sympathetic to us and that Pliggy has talked to you a little etc. etc., but everyone of your posts talk to great lengths about "compromise". Compromise is fine when it involves functional things but when people want us to compromise our religious beliefs and practices (which are Constitutionally protected might I add) then you're crossing the line of propriety. Everybody jumps on a band wagon and starts playing as loud as they can. Stamp starts foamenting about fumerase. He probably doesn't even know (I mean personally) of even one case. He's more than likley just repeating something he's read in the paper or regurgitating someone elses cud and chewing on it. Sometimes your posts sound like Rodney King "Can't we all just get along?" and I say yes we can! Let's all just go back to minding our OWN BUSINESS! Laurie's movie has NOTHING to do with my family!
cheese, I have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Clearly you think I said something very different than anything I intended. But all you did was rant. You gave nothing concrete.
I have never, ever, not once, not in any way whatso ever even remotely suggested that you, or anyone else compromise your faith.
Where you got that is a mystery to me.
What you are carrying on about Fumarase is also a mystery....
So you are welcome to be all sorts of upset with me if that's what you choose. But if you want me to understand what you're carrying on about, you have to be specific...because temper tantrums may feel good, but they don't teach, convey, or fix anything....
Cheese...
Personally, I don't give a hoot how you choose to raise your children. I have never comented on that. Not your parenting style, or anyone else, specifically.
What I did say, and I'll repeat, is if a child/young adult is choosing to not remain in the community, as a parent, I may agree that my child can no longer live in my honme, for a variety of reasons, but it doesn't mean I stop loving my child, and it does mean I want the best for him/her. I would much prefer that someone neutral helps him/her make their way in the outside world than someone who is going to tryto turn my child into someone who hates me, or someone who becomes apostate....
Now if you think that is being critical of anyone's parenting, well then feel free to think that......
As for Laurie's movie....I'm not going to go into that one again because I really don't want to play footsies with Laurie and all her silly challenges....
She and I agree to disagree on her movie...simple....
But you blasting me out of the blue, is pretty bizarre.....
rericson the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Putting out a "safety net," although well intended, I would think would be quite insulting to a community under which said net is placed. Perhaps the community would feel a tad intimidated thinking that that same net could also be used to ensare them. It could also make them feel uncomfortable knowing that folks from this "safety net" are coming inbetween themselves and their children who they are trying to raise to take their place in the community. And then "safety net" agents come by interviewing the child asking him/her stuff, planting thoughts of rebellion in their brains, dangling money in their faces for college, clothes, cars, etc. What is a parent in the community to think? Well they think their autonomy is threatened for one thing, as these pied pipers come around trying to steal off their children -- their hope for the future. How can they compete on a materialistic basis with the Fischers on the outside and the bottomless pockets of the government, with high-paid propagandists and marketing pros, who will smooth talk their children into selling their souls, so to speak?
If you do not see the treachery, the danger, in this seemingly innocuous organization, then you are most likely one of them, one of the system, fully vested in total takeover of the family, forcing total conformity at the point of a gun. Those academic ideas might sound good in theory. But in practice they are merely tools to bludgeon families into submission.
Stamper said..
"Say, you wouldn’t deny help to handicapped children, would you..?"
Of course not, I would never deny help for you little guy, there has got to be some medication for what you have. Bigotrase Conscience Deficiency.
Cheese,
Regina was not, and has not ever knowingly asked anyone to compromise their religion. When she says "compromise" she is talking about being more willing to talk to the government when someone wants to leave the community or the religion. I don't think she fully realizes the LACK of need for intervention, or we are lacking the realization the need FOR it. We know the only few who have publicly said they needed it, were only the few who were trying to fight their former faith.
I don't have as much optimism as she does about reconciliation, but the fact that she is optimistic shouldn't be any reason to think she is trying to make us compromise our beliefs, not in the slightest.
The problem she doesn't completely realize is the religious belief is criminal, and the fact that it is illegal to them is a direct correlation with immoral. Since illegal is immoral, then for one younger than a legal adult to follow the religious tenant, they believe it is more immoral, and thus more illegal. They automatically attach polygyny to infidelity, and their own jealousy brought through their culture and practices is substituted for understanding. Apostasy from our culture into their culture multiplies their hatred, as apostates always vilify their former beliefs the same way an ex spouse vilifies their former mate.
Of course we don't believe it is immoral, or harmful, or anything less than progress and only means great happiness and joy to anyone to be married by the Priesthood of the FLDS.
I don't believe a "safety net" is needed from the FLDS standpoint, but a "safety net" has the possibility to soothe the minds of those who think it is needed.
The Federal government put in a "safe house" for women in Salt Lake City in the 1860's, it was for those women "fleeing" the religion. It had almost zero tenants, and none from the LDS church; just like the "shelter" that Gary Engles runs for Arizona.
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Laurie,
Before I vomit, I will tell you that you did ten million times worse to Ruth than anything Warren Jeffs was blamed for by "inner circle" Carolyn. She was as "inner circle" as pinnochio.
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Maybe I've completely misunderstood this whole thing....
Every community/state/nation etc. has a network of organizations, public and private and blended that provide various human services....everything from mental health counseling to getting support rails in a bath tub for an elderly person....
Most families, at one time or another...and for all sorts of reasons, have the need to access human services...
I thought that this was an organization set up specifically to recognize the cultural differences in some of the fundamentalist groups, help bridge those cultural divides, so that services that some individuals or some families may want but have not reached out for, would be available to them.... and provide some direct services, that could be accessed in other places, but through this group they would be deliverd in a way that respects the culture....
And pliggy, I have to take exception to you saying that young people who want to leave don't need services...
If a young man doesn't have marketable skills, is upset over leaving his family, doesn't have a network of people who will help him get his bearings...he is easy prey for folks like Fischer...if there is a place that will offer him the help, including helping him patch things yup with his family if that is what he and his family want...well, to me that is a good thing...and I know it isn't easy for any 18-19 year old to start out on their own.....and I know how easy it is to fall into the party life if there isn't someone there to divert you.....
I have never suggested any compromiseon doctrine...when I talk about compromise, I'm talking about things like working with a trustee if it isn't wisan...that would be a compromise...sitting down and working out a way of running the trust and the community with a trustee...taking it to the court for approval...that's a compromise...
working with the state dept. of education to establish some regular achievment tests or other way of demonstrating that the children are recieving a good, no sub-standard, education...that would be a compromise...and it would get them off your back....
There are lots of things that can be part of a give and take discussion....everything doesn't have to be acrimonius....
And yes, I am part of "the system" in some ways...I found, al ong time ago, I get more, faster, working with them rather than fighting everything...and it doesn't mean I don't fight when there is no other way....
I have been an advocate for families for a very long time...and I have witnessed monumental change in how families with a child with challenges experiences the service system, over the years...and I have watched the development of some really good services...and I have watched the end of some really bad practices...and I have been a part of that...I am a very, very strong voice for families, and I am really proud of that.....
"And pliggy, I have to take exception to you saying that young people who want to leave don't need services...
If a young man doesn't have marketable skills, is upset over leaving his family, doesn't have a network of people who will help him get his bearings..."
I don't know where that is taking exception. The key recurring word you use is IF, I know that fellows who leave the FLDS do not need "special" or "specific" services seperate from those who leave any other home.
And your "compromise" is looking less like you understand the real problem. Wisan's first move was to sue the FLDS trustees, men who were our representatives. There should be no compromise with Wisan, or any other mandated outside dictator. The judge used her hired gun wisan, and he began shooting from the hip. Dance!!
If that "Safety Net" has the FLDS participating in the administration of it, it could be helpful to tone down the problems, like "The Primer" and the overly aggressive moves by some involved that plain hate the crowd they wish to "save" someone from.
It would be better than not getting involved and just allowing the haters continue running it.
****
As I read Laurie's comment; "The boys get thrown out", I recall the interview with the lady that ran the shelter which recently closed down.
Her description of the families involved was 100% opposite of Laurie's ranting.
ziggy said: "rericson the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Putting out a "safety net," although well intended, I would think would be quite insulting to a community under which said net is placed."
as I said before rericson, ziggy 'gets it'.
What ziggy said here is basically what I was getting at. You always come across all psycological like and have all these ideas about how we'll just give up some of our religion and the Attorney General will just give a little and not be so mean and we'll all just talk it out and blah blah blah......
The 'safety net' is nothing but a crock.
Pliggy and cheese
You are correct in your assessment that chances of the FLDS can keep out of trouble with Warren as prophet.
He is your rock and he has no use for the law.
So you are destined to accept the hand he gave you.
The "Safety Net" works a little different in Texas doesnt it?
"We succeeded in taking that picture [from deep space], and if you look at it, you see a dot.
That's here.
That's home.
That's us.
On it everyone you love, everyone you know, everyone you ever heard of, every human being who ever was, lived out their lives.
The aggregate of our joy and suffering, thousands of confident religions, ideologies, and economic doctrines, every hunter and forager, every hero and coward, every creator and destroyer of civilization, every king and peasant, every young couple in love, every mother and father, hopeful child, inventor and explorer, every teacher of morals, every corrupt politician, every "superstar," every "supreme leader," every saint and sinner in the history of our species lived there — on a mote of dust suspended in a sunbeam.
==========
~ Carl Sagan
rericson, why can't the socially minded people (like yourself) just stick to giving services to the people that are begging for them, and just let everyone else be? If someone doesn't want the attention, doesn't want the "help" why force it upon them? I just don't understand how you can think it's charitable when it's given by force.
Ok, so if you're concerned about run-aways, why not just create a big "halfway house" 5 story building somewhere in Utah to service ALL the "runaway" 18 year olds from every walk of life? Why do you advocate for singling one particular group, loudly proclaiming that this particular group has "runaways" as if that group is a hellish place? That's the message these kind of "safety nets" send. Pay close attention to the language in your charter; it's down right prejudicial, "pliggyist" for want of a better word.
Oh, and don't have the money to spend on a program that helps ALL runaways from all over Utah? Well then it isn't very equal opportunity then now is it? Hmmmm, I could be on to something. Civil rights lawsuit comes to mind?
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First of all, this committee is not specifically set up for the FLDS. It is for all and anyone who are opart of the many different groups of Fundamentalist Mormons.
And it is not funded to the level that would be necessary to actually be a direct service provider for a full spectrum of services.
It is a bridge organization, at best, for most services.
One of the first things I "noticed", or realized, when I started getting involved in this blog were some of the language differences between FLDS and mainstream folks.
The use of the word "marriage" being a big one. How sexuality is viewed is another. The understanding of what the term, and how it is used of "Keep Sweet".
The list of differences goes on and on...and outsiders not understanding those differences is at the root of many of the problems in communication and beliefs about each other.
I think the FLDS understand how outsiders use the same terms far better than outsiders understand the FLDS use of the same...on the other hand, the outsiders have persecuted and prosecuted, often because of a basic lack of understanding, that the FLDS have gone, for all intents and purposes, into 'shut-down', when it comes to dealing with the outside....
So this organization is there for the FLDS AND OTHERS, to get past this 'shut-down'. To have people who understand the cultural gap working there...to help create bridges when needed...
And yes, the services that some of the young people that are leaving need are no different than any other young person leaving an "outside" home sometimes needs....and this group will help access those services that are available....
Or perhaps help access some of the services that are available for senior citizens....or some of the services that are available for families iwth a child who is acting out...or is hearing impaired or sight impaired or whatever services ae needed....
The only direct services I understand that will be provided are groups for women ...because they do need to be handled very differently than outside groups...because there are huge cultural differences and no fundamentalist woman is going to feel comfortable or like she belongs in a group of outside women whenit comes to discussing very personal aspects of her life...
And who knows, maybe no FLDS women will even bother with this part of this organization.....doesn't make the organization bad...or not needed for those who do want to access it....
And yes, they could have chosen a less alienating name...but they didn't...maybe they will in the future...still doesn't make what they want to do a bad thing....
As for the whole Wisan thing...I agree that it was a set up. I agree that the whole thing should have been handled differently. But I can't, anymore than anyone else, go back and unring bells...
So common sense tells me to ask for the moon...ask for everything I want...but have a "plan B"....because I'm probably not going to get everything...so how do I operate...what would be better than what I have now if I can't have exactly what I want?????
Those kinds of circumstances are the places I would look to see what the bottom line for compromise is....Some "wins" are not huge...sometimes winning is a slow, incremental set of gains...so what are the first increments?????
Because the alternative is often to lose everything....
This is just a basic look at how to move past problems....not just for the FLDS...for anyone...
When I look at where I want Pa. to be as far as children's services go, I see a very different world than what we have. When I look back, I see a steady movement toward where it ultimately needs to be. But that movement is a incremental set of little wins....
I, and others fighting with me, could have stood on principle, and insisted on everything or nothing, long ago...and we would have gotten no where...the state would have just continued doing whatever they felt was right...without our voice..the voice of the people affected by their choices...
So we took stock and developed a "Plan B" and got ourselves to the table and have never left.....
The FLDS and any other group being stomped on by bad laws, need to get yourselves to the table and not go away!!!!!!
And the other thing I learned is while at the table, I had to play by their rules of engagment. If I wanted to win...if I wanted things to move forward, I wasn't going to get a damn thing if I came to their table and pounded my fist...I had to come to the table able to play as an equal...I had to learn and use their language. I had to learn to build allies away from the table with different parties that were also at the table. I had to learn to pick battles. I had to learn the characters...what could I expect from whom....and who could "hear" what, from whom...who would be the best person to introduce an idea...
It is complicated and easy at the same time...and it isn't perfect, but it is how change comes about...
And the first thing you have to do is to not see this 'Safety Net" thing as exclusively about the FLDS....
The second thing you need to do is seperate issues. Like the issue of legalization vs. decriminalization....and no matter what the lauries and others say, it really is a seperate issue from anything else...and it is about a far larger group than just the FLDS...so figure out just what makes the most sense for your group, and fight for that....
Which of the various alternatives most closely allows you to move forward toward your individual goals?....then don't let all sorts of other diversions get in the way....don't get caught in an emotional fray that is divisive...
Chris wrote "
Tell us - just why is it that peyote use can be a part of American Indians religious practices, but plural marriage can't be a part of Mormon Fundamentalist practice?
"
Because peyote does not have inherent human rights???
Face it, any organization that tries to speak for or to the basi human rights of the women in polygamy is, in fact, anti-polygamy. DUH. The men are going to forbid anything they don't control.
Laurie wrote "Blogger Laurie... said...
"God" is an abstract theory and men who subjugate women are "wicked". How's that for starters?"
I like you more and more. Smile.
I had a dream last night. The US Supreme Court ruled that all the laws in the US that mention 'marriage' have to be changed to 'legal familial partnership'. Problem solved. I woke up laughing.
Betty, I don't know how it is practiced in any given, individual home or set of relationships, but I do know that the doctrine of the FLDS is not one where women are treated badly or subservient.
Their belief, as I understand it, is that men and women have different roles. Different but interdependent. One cannot succeed, reach the Celetial Kingdom, without each oter. That there has to be mutual respect for both roles. And that love and kindness have to guide everything.
Now there may be those that don't follow that. And for those, if they stay within the laws, and don't come to the attention of the Prophet or bishop, may only be held accountable in the afterlife...but others, who either violate the law, and are caught, or who violate the doctrines and beliefs of the faith and come to the attention of the Prophet or the bishop, will be held accountable in this world...and that can mean being asked to leave the community, being excomunicated, or other, lesser sanctions....
From everything I have learned from individuals living the faith, your concept of subservient, quasi-enslavement, and abject disrespect of women, and their human rights is just not real!
laurie: "Another fine example of circular plyg hogwash"
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That's hate speech. You could never run for office now.
rericson says "First of all, this committee is not specifically set up for the FLDS. It is for all and anyone who are opart of the many different groups of Fundamentalist Mormons.
And it is not funded to the level that would be necessary to actually be a direct service provider for a full spectrum of services."
-----------
Is this what they teach in socialist classes nowadays? How to use obfuscatory sentences and phrases like "full spectrum of services" to quiet the opposition? I know, and you know, exactly what this "safety net" is all about. It's just plain disingenuous to pretend that it's for any other reason than to zero in on the FLDS community. I hope someone examines any and all records this committee keeps to see where any outreach takes place, and whether it's done in a perfectly distributed fashion to all polygamist communities and not just on FLDS terf.
After that's done, we'll address the larger issue of whether it is appropriate and legal to target a particular subset of society, defined by their religious convictions, in the way that's being done here. If a "runaway" from a Hairi Chrishna community were to show up at the gates of the "Safety Net" would you turn him away? Yes? Well that's a violation of the Equal Opportunity clause. That man can sue you for civil rights violations. Government should not target groups in any form or fashion by their religion, race, or ethnicity.
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As usual, Laurie is inaccurate again.
That quote is not from my comments.
Rericson,
You continue to amaze me. Yes, they have roles. His is master, hers is slave. Children are either future masters or future slaves or future outcasts. The polygamist men right here in this blog have said that.
Your pseudo social studies babble is eating your brain! You are surrounded by vicious male chauvenist narcissists and you can't see nothing but a 'diversity' issue.
Hint. Whenever a man starts talking about marrying only virgins, or 'protecting' women, or patriarchy....they are talking about oppressing women.
sorry about my misspelling and grammar problems in the previous post. My emotions got ahead of my editing skills and I can't go back and fix it as on tribtown.
Z-
You need to look at the history of the committee. It was in the works before the Texas debacle. I made the same mistake you are making when Brooke first posted about it. I thought it was something being established for the FLDS. And I was concerned because it was based in Salt Lake, with no plans for an office or anything, in St. George. It was then that I was corrected/told about the committee, the numbers of fundamentalists in the S.L. area, and the number of other groups it was intended to impact.....
So unless the language of the grant has been changed, ergo the charge of the committee, I still have to believe that the intended target population is much wider than the FLDS community....
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Laurie, I listened to an enormous amount of taped 'stuff', from Warren Jeffs. Some of it, I imagine, was sermons...some of it, I have been told, were recordings of classes when he was at Alta Vista Academy.
Some of what was recorded were readings of the sermons and writings of the old Prophets....and not the actual words or thinkings of Jeffs.
So, to make a short answer long...I may, or may not have heard what you're talking about, and I do not know it's context, which makes all the difference in the world....
How's that for a politic answer?
I do know that many of the things I listened to sounded harsh, or offensive, on the surface...it wasn't until I was given their context and also an understanding of the underlying lesson, that I was able to not automatically listen and take offense, rather listen and try to hear the lesson....
And I know that, at least some, of the members of the community do the same thing...they pray and search for the lesson...not the verbatim words, rather "what is it I should be learning from this?"
You may very well be right, some persons listening to the "sermon" you're talking about, may have taken the wrong lessons...I don't know...mainly because I don't have specific recall of the sermon...sorry.....
Laurie, et al...
The other thing that continuously bothers me is why the huge focus, solely on the FLDS?
There are enormous numbers of women, all over this country, living and believing in a male/husband dominated relationship. Most mainstream Christian and Jewish faiths are patriarchal....
I know women who couldn't make a decision about anything more important that whether to serve hamburgur or tuna "helper" for supper, than the man in the moon. If I call them to set up a meeting, the first thing they do is tell me they have to check with 'hubby'.
I've encountered women who can't let me into their homes because they haven't cleared it with 'hubby'.
I have had to make suspected abuse reports because 'hubby' won't talk to me but 'hubby' spanks the crap out of his child everynight for behaviors the child can't help.
And these aren't isolated...these folks are big parts of every community.....
So why not focus on changing this everywhere????
Why the focus on one group? And I know it isn't the practice in all FLDS families....I have had mothers describe wonderful partnerships that the adults in their families have....and I have listened to pliggy and others talk about how amazingly wonderful their mothers are....
And when given the opportunity to have all sorts of help in making a transition, in Texas, none of the women opted for leaving....not only did they not opt for leaving, they didn't ask clarifying questions, or anything specific...they never even entertained the idea....
And with all of the attention, there isn't a woman left in the FLDS that isn't aware of all the folks on the ooutside just waiting to "help", but you aren't seeing a mass exodus....
So even if there are aspects that, to the outside eye, are subservient, isn't it their right to make this choice?
And please, please, don't tell me about the "Stockholm Syndrome", or about Sutherland's theory of differential association...
I am very, very familiar with the dynamics...
I just don't know if they are wrong, or right, or if we, the greater society, have any business in interfering in their social structure...even if we don't agree with it, like it, or can see a way to change it....
rericson,
Those other groups bother me also. It's really about where you draw the line. At least the fundamentalist Christians have not altered their religion to state that a woman cannot be saved without her husband's invitation. Yet. The FLDS are just sort of out there near the abyss, just behind the LeBaron people and the Taliban.
But thanks for playing.
Laurie,
re:
rericsons answer to you about FLDS doctrine
IMHO, she has set up a belief system in which the FLDS are in need of negotiations and communications for which she is uniquely qualified. She can look right at rape, neglect, under education, psychological abuse, etc. and call it a quaint socialogical experiment. She's proven repeatedly that she's not seeing any evidence that conflicts with that fantasy.
Betty, The entire LDS religion ascribe to the same beliefs....
Millions of members, worldwide....not just the fundamentalist groups....
And, I guess I haven't asked enough questions...but does it mean that everywoman has to be invited in order to enter heaven, or is that everywoman has to be invited to enter the Celestial Kingdom? Aren't there other levels that folks can enter at and continue their journey to the highest level?
I'm not trying to be obtuse here...
I just thought that unless a person is an abject asshole/evil being, everyone enters heaven, it's just a matter of which level...and that there is always the opportunity to continue to work toward the highest level....
I thought that the alternative of ceasing to exist was reserved for the abject assholes/evil ones...without regard to gender....
rericson,
I could see leaving them alone if we could wall off part of Utah and make it a theocracy for them. Then they don't get any social services from the USofA or their state, but have to make it on their own. If they are not willing to make their own theocracy, and they are not willing to live with in reasonable parameters within the republic, then there it is going to continue to be the business of outsiders. We're picking up the tab for a lot of the consequences. And we didn't get kissed.
Then, of course, there's compassion for people who are actually suffering from their own belief system. But you refuse to admit they exist.
Laurie says: Once upon a time slavery was "black culture"
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You know good and well that when I said "black culture" I didn't mean slavery culture. Slavery culture is anything but black culture, it's more white plantation owner culture.
I think if there are Centennial Park members on the board of this Safety Net, I would like to know what they think "--Determine the number of the youth wanting to leave the culture" means.
Are they concerned about their own youth? Or are they concerned about those funny dressed people in Short Creek?
Also, just out of curiosity, how many of the following list has sheltered youth from Centennial Park or AUB?
New Frontiers, the marshals, Homeless Youth Resource Center, iworks
Honest question. And then we'll talk about the Hairi Crishna kid who get's turned away from the only(?) religion focused government program in Utah.
betty: At least the fundamentalist Christians have not altered their religion to state that a woman cannot be saved without her husband's invitation.
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I see so you won't be content until the FLDS change their religion. Maybe you haven't heard about the First Amendment.
Rericson wrote "And when given the opportunity to have all sorts of help in making a transition, in Texas, none of the women opted for leaving....not only did they not opt for leaving, they didn't ask clarifying questions, or anything specific...they never even entertained the idea...."
I know for a fact that that is not true. Because I have talked with those who did. Sorry, but you are taking the pablum they are feeding you and saying YUM YUM.
And as far as focusing on this group...to paraphrase a friend...yes, others do these evils, some do them and are not punished, but who else builds temples to such evils? They seem to be refining it to a fine art through superior organizational skills.
Betty-
Ya know, I always wondered that, too...I look at St peter's Basillica, St. Patrick's Cathedral, some of the amazing churches throughout Europe, particularly Russia, the main temple in Salt Lake,and so many others, and they are truly monuments to man's ingenuity, creative spirit, sense of beauty, and doctrines that totally befuddle me......
But then I also look to the science and knowledge and the men and women who made sense of the science, the math, the music, to make these monuments possible, and I am somewhat appeased....
Betty sad...
"Then, of course, there's compassion for people who are actually suffering from their own belief system. But you refuse to admit they exist."
Betty, that made me laugh! Just how much are you suffering from your own belief system?
I mean your belief system that men are worthless, that a man should not be the leader of his family, and that women who honor their husband are less "smart" than you?
Men cannot reach the highest heaven without being magnanimous enough to have the love of his wives. There is no slavery in heaven, from men or women, I know that might bother you some. You are subjugating yourself with a moronic hate belief system.
Betty said...
"I know for a fact that that is not true. Because I have talked with those who did."
Suuure you did. Was that Sadies new sockpuppet, texas flying free?
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Laurie, I have no doubt that what you wrote is true...
I think what hauntsme is that ther is another side...that there is no black and white...
What about the woman who says to me, "I am educated. I have friends and acquaintances on the outside. I have marketable skills. I know I could leave, with my children, and continue to believe in the Principle and all that is fundamental Mormonism, and I choose to stay. I am happy. I love my life, and my work, and my family."
Now that was certainly paraphrasing...but it is something I have heard, over and over.....
Or I've heard Pliggy say, again, paraphrasing, "My mothers are the most beautiful people in the world. They are partners with my father in everything that is our family. We have had good times and bad times, but never, ever would my father even think about abusing my mothers or any of us."
And then I meet him, more than once...he has stayed in my home, laughed with my sons...met my neighbors...and he is delightful...and I know, concretely, that a young person's countenance is, in large part, a reflection of who their parents have raised them to be. And he is polite, and helpful and a delight to be around...I would be so, so proud of my sons if someone were to say that to me, about them....
I don't agree with Mormon theology...or Christian or Judaism, either....but that has nothing to do with the individuals....how many "good Catholics" do you know that actually practice Catholicism to the letter? My gosh, they don't even know "the letter"...if they did, half of them would high-tail it out of the church faster than you can say "St. Patrick"....
All you people who think you know the FLDS sure have a hard time understanding that mormons and FLDS both use the same basic beliefs as their tenets. Does not the mormon church use the three-in one as their absolute guide? If they do then why don't they read it and try to understand what Joseph Smith meant? The church leadership is guilty of watering down the higher principles of the Gospel to take away any controversy the teachings may stimulate. Joseph Smith said: "A religion that does not require the sacrifice of all earthly things does not have the power to produce the faith necessary for exaltation."
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Laurie: And "opt for leaving"? What a joke! Who's going to leave the FLDS when you've been taught from birth that you'll burn in hell if you do?
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How do you know that's not true? How do you know you aren't going to hell? It all depends on one's convictions. Truth is a matter perspective; and none of use know who's right, until we die and see what's on the other side -- if anything.
Laurie...
I'm not a clinician...but I've been around a bunch of 'em....
And I've been to a gazillion trainings and seminars and what-have-you on various mental health issues and diagnosis...
So...
Sociopath, as a clinical dx is no more..."borderline personality disorder" has pretty much taken it's place....
Some believe 'reactive attachment disorder' is a precursor to all the traits we once called a sociopath...
my personal definition of a 'sociopath' is 'one who has no conscience.....'
I just don't see it fitting....
And going to what 'freethinker' said about LDS having the same, albeit watered down, beliefs...and so many other major religions having bizarre beliefs....
so what? Noone is going after them, or wanting them to cease and desist, en masse....
LDS families are every bit as patriarchal as FLDS families are....
I think the fact that they dress differently, have exclusive towns, and have been secretive because of polygamy, has a lot to do with the huge focus...and not that they really are terribly different from many groups...
Near here we have a smal town named Roseto....
Roseto is 100% Roman Catholic, Italian Americans. Most of the townsfolk don't speak English as thier first language. Even those born here. They speak Italian. They have been here for many, many generations. They came as coal miners and workers in the slate industry. Roseto is located in the middle of the 'slate belt'.
They have their own church and church school, they have their Mass in Latin....it is a closed community. They marry in the community. They shun outsiders. There are more lawn virgins than one can count....
The men play bocce and dominos and drink espresso and ameretto and the women cook and clean and take care of the church and the children and cluster amongst themselves....
How are they terribly different?
And I sure as heck don't agree with their choices....
This simply isn't a black and white issue....
And I think there is good and bad in every group...
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but who else builds temples to such evils?
Betty shows her true character here, the epitome of bigotry and a religious persecutor. So what should we do Betty, burn down this "evil temple"?
Throughout human history, countless temples and places of worship have been destroyed, desecrated, and the followers persecuted and often murdered. So are you saying that finally, after countless religious pogroms and acts of terror through the millenniums, we finally got it right? That this is a genuine "evil" religion that deserves to have its' temples destroyed and followers made barren and left to die out naturally? If we are to do this, our descendants' history books will mark this anti Fundie Mormon Crusade as one of the greatest and most remarkable events in history? Perhaps in the future, there will be a holiday commemorating this great event. I won't be celebrating it.
Laurie, From what I've gathered and you can correct me if I am wrong, but scores of women have left this sect over the years, how could they do it if the leadership does such an effective job of keeping them within the fold? What is the apostasy rate of the FLDS in comparison to other religious denominations?
Duane,
I don't know where you get your fantasies. I said absolutely nothing about burning down the temple, or anything else for that matter.
I suspect that you suspect who I have been talking to Pliggy, and I suspect that you suspect wrongly. Heh.
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duenah1 said..."That this is a genuine "evil" religion that deserves to have its' temples destroyed and followers made barren and left to die out naturally?"
That's news to me, too. ?????
Freethinker,
Joseph Smith also said something very like..I had a dream that your wife is mine in heaven and so I am sending over a carriage to pick her up and bring her to me. Good luck finding someone else.
Obviously the words of a holy man.
ziggy,
I have rights, also. I have rights to believe that their religion is evil and leads to destructive behaviors. It would cheer me up immensely concerning human nature in general if all the women in the FLDS smacked their foreheads and said "Dang! I could have had my own man and still have a relationship with God!" and then walked out. But I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for that to happen.
Bettymuhan...
I only suspect that you are not telling the truth. In fact you said "they", so can you give an accurate count of how many women who were living on the ranch during the raid, and were "liberated" by it? All I want is a number, you don't have to reveal your sockpuppets.
Laurie,
I figured you and Watkiss were buddies. His most accurate work was his role in your kind of documentary: "Dumb and Dumber" I am sure all of America should be outraged by the little blind boy who was sold a dead birdie with a taped on head.
"I'm no expert on sociopathy, but when I read that book, I kept thinking about polygamists and the way they operate."
Wow, you are good at fictional drama. LOL
I know, I know, it's too easy.
I did a search on Roseto PA. I found that it has a population of 1600 people, average age distribution 97% non hispanic white. Now, about the Italian Catholic thing.
Mapquest lists 10 churches in Roseto PA. One Catholic and a Gethsemene Services (assumed catholic). Two are Presbyterian. There is also Lutheran, Baptist, Evangelical, Church of Christ and Jehovah's Witnesses.
Somehow I bet they teach the schools in English.
You are so full of it.
Pliggy,
I am not lying. Actually, I have lots of faults, but lying is not generally one of them.
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Bety, I don't know where you looked it up, or where that source got it's info...perhaps they are lumping info from nearby Bangor into things...Roseto is probably less than 1500 people, they have one church, and one school. grade k-8. They don't even have any stores..except a quick-stop gas station..and a pizza joint/mens social club...and a K of C hall
It is a tiny hamlet.....
It's about 12-15 miles from here...maybe a little less...and it is 100% Italian....unless someone snuck in in the night and changed his/her name...there are absolutely, positively no non-whites....
Laurie, someday you and I should have a one to one chat without all the audience and posturing....
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Betty,
I am not speaking of generally, I am speaking of specificallly.
Laurie, the FLDS ladies are not the ones who think they need to use their face for a coloring book to go shopping.
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Yes, I see only one church listed in the twp of roseta. It's presbyterian, on Garibaldi St, right in the middle of town.
Try this with Colorado City or Hildale and see what you get. Go ahead, expand the area to 50 miles. You get LDS, LDS, LDS and a Jehovah's Witness.
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Pliggy, there is a possibility that we are miscommunicating. I am not telling an untruth with the intent to deceive, or any part of a truth. But I might have details of the story wrong in my head.
Thanks, Laurie. smile.
betty, I believe you...that the info is what is listed...but the church in the middle of town is R.C.
....are you kidding...a protestant church would spontaneously combust, right on, or about Columbus Day.....dollars to donuts...
laurie, I said chat...not meet. Unless you're planning a trip to the poconos...
and the only reason would be for shits and giggles...or are you unfamiliar with that expression?
rericson: For a few of your recent posts, it seemed you were beginning to see the Safety Net issue a little more rationally than your previous posts (which defend the FLDS perpetrators). In some ways, you're even worse than they are. You come across as a female misogynist, and that's horrendous, considering your so-called profession.
What don't you understand about polygamist males in jail and indicted for committing crimes against women? Are you saying, in all your wisdom, that your interpretation of the law should prevail over the courts in 3 states (4, if you include Arkansas)?
I cheer on Betty and Laurie and the others who reason so clearly and state their cases so simply, without going on for 20 paragraphs at a time.
BTW, I saw Banking on Heaven a couple of years ago, and so help me, everything stated in the film has stood the test of time. Nothing I've heard or read since has disproved anything the film portrays. I get a chuckle out of Pliggy bashing the film repeatedly, then revealing that he just recently actually saw it himself! What a jerk.
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Merrill Jessop indicted!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/ap/tx/6130180.html
http://www.chron.com/disp/story.
mpl/ap/tx/6130180.html
The last post chopped off the end of the link...oops
Pliggy wrote "I mean your belief system that men are worthless, that a man should not be the leader of his family, and that women who honor their husband are less "smart" than you?"
I do not believe that men are worthless. I never said anything like that.
I think that a mature spiritual love is only possible between equals. You cannot be equals if one of you has another date to go to.
I think that God did not define the role of any person at their birth based on their gender. I think some men are nurturing and some women are good at kick boxing. Some people want kids and some want to contribute to life in other ways and some just want to have fun. We should not assign them jobs or spouses, we should let them find their own way in life.
I honor my husband. I don't kiss his feet and I only kiss other parts when asked nicely.
Platoons of soldiers need leaders, families need adult partners. I believe that Christian faith does not require women to behave like doormats. Nor does it require us to attempt to live like primitive, nomadic sheep herders.
I think between two people who love each other, at some point or another, both of them will submit to the other.
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Laurie, I think that meant that as of Aug. '07, he had 21 wives...but whatever...
As I've said before, it isn't a lifestyle choice I'd make for myself....
You are not going to convince me that everything, and everyone in the FLDS community are bad...or that the women are all brainwashed sheep...
And you and your like thinkers have all this negative stuff to say, but you never actually say what you want to see happen...except the pat line about stopping the abuse of little girls...
Well, no one wants to see abuse of anyone, and the leadership has said they will no longer approve or perform marriages with anyone younger than statute allows...
So what specifically do you want...and not philosophically...and how do you propose what you want happens....realistically...not in lala land...
gotta love this;
"Michael Piccarreta, was scheduled to depose Flora Jessop about those calls on Monday, but Flora Jessop refused to answer questions without a television reporter present, he said."
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Oh for crying out loud, Laurie...grow up. You act so childish, sometimes! Do you stick out your tongue, too?
You're an old bat with a lot of years on you, just like me.
Maybe you somehow feel entitled to make up for your lost childhood?
Talk to your friend the shrink about it....
Although if your friend said what you claim he/she said, he/she should lose his/her license....
Your comments make about as much sense as saying there is no global warming.....can't have it both ways, sweetie...either you believe in science or you don't can't pick and choose which schools are real.....
I've often thought how nice alcoholism must be...at least before it starts to kill you...have a couple of drinks at the end of the day and off you go into whatever bizarre reality you choose, with no responsibility for civility...and every excuse in the book the next day...if you remember.....
Laurie... said...
>Chris asked..."Tell us - just why is it that peyote use can be a part of American Indians religious practices, but plural marriage can't be a part of Mormon Fundamentalist practice?"
Laurie stated:
>Peyote doesn't subjugate women, polygamy does.
Chris responds: Polygamous marriage doesn't subjugate women any more than monogamous marriage goes.
Tell us, Laurie, does monogamy subjugate women? If you think so, are you a feminist? If you are, what type of feminist are you - a Margaret Sanger, Andrea Dworkin, or Robin Morgan type of Feminist?
chris
passingthru/heavenhelpus said...
I saw Banking on Heaven a couple of years ago, and so help me, everything stated in the film has stood the test of time. Nothing I've heard or read since has disproved anything the film portrays. I get a chuckle out of Pliggy bashing the film repeatedly, then revealing that he just recently actually saw it himself! What a jerk.
Why would I need to see it? I was in it! Laurie, you owe me and especially my sister and her children a commission! I saw the trailer trash and that was enough for me, but Maayan wanted me to watch it. I know those people in it, and not one dern thing is true except that Laurie found good story tellers. Nothing else. The way she twisted Ruths story around with the help of the three bits of itches, or her editing "ability", borders on libel if you ask me. Pure drivel.
Betty,
You didn't say men were worthless any more than I or anyone I know in the FLDS said women were doormats. It works both ways ya know. And despite what you or I wish was true, men cannot bear children. When it comes to children, there are OBVIOUS gender roles.
And any true spiritual love that demands equal authority, is not anything but phony love.
The good news appears to be "Wendell Loy Nielsen, 68, charged with three counts of bigamy", if page 14 of the Bishop's Records are accurate, will evidently be facing charges for plural marriage between two or more CONSENTING ADULTS, who all had knowledge of the situation.
The youngest wives on that list were 24, 25 & 27 as of August, 2007. Texas may have brought THE CASE all wanted to see.
Now, if Wendal lives long enough to see this case to SCOTUS is the question.
>Betty said...
>Rericson,
>You continue to amaze me. Yes, they have roles. His is master, hers is slave. Children are either future masters or future slaves or future outcasts. The polygamist men right here in this blog have said that.
>Your pseudo social studies babble is eating your brain! You are surrounded by vicious male chauvenist narcissists and you can't see nothing but a 'diversity' issue.
>Hint. Whenever a man starts talking about marrying only virgins, or 'protecting' women, or patriarchy....they are talking about oppressing women.
Chris: Ah, yes, does any doubt remain as to Betty's feminism?
So, same question to you, Betty - are you a Margaret Sanger, Andrea Dworkin, or Robin Morgan type of Feminist? Inquiring minds want to know.
chris
It is rather telling that Texas ONLY goes after any for bigamy in cases involving consenting adults in which the male is 68 YO.
Chris, if it took you this long to figure out I'm a feminist, then you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. I've been talking about women's rights here for about six months now.
I'm the kind of feminists who believe that women should be equal in the family, in society, legally, financially. I am not a lesbian, nor do I hate men, nor do I hate children. I do not think that women who have children are disqualified from being feminists, in fact, most of the feminists I know have children. I don't think rericson is a feminist, although she does. I am immensely amused that you think by calling me that you have 'outed' me as something horrifying. At least I don't think God wants me to have sex with teenagers, you know?
Pliggy, now you're just jealous because I write well.
"And any true spiritual love that demands equal authority, is not anything but phony love."
Any love that requires the submission of the beloved is just a bad case of narcissism.
Betty, you strike me as just the 'type' to have a toy-boy hidden away...of consenting age, of course......
And anyone who has ever been in a relationship for more than five minutes knows that there is no such thing as perfect balance.....or equitable distribution of power, or whatever anyone wants to call it....
and there are distinct roles in the relationship, yes, they change, but they are, none-the-less, distinct...
but in the long haul...yup...balance is achieved....
rericson,
I was going on about Roseta because I do NOT think it is an apt comparison. I think that you are not being genuine when you compare Italian Catholics to the FLDS. I am guessing that in the town of Roseta, you can buy condoms at the Sheetz (or whatever equivalent) and pick up birth control from the pharmacy. I'm betting that the number of young women married to old men in Roseta is well below the national average. Yeah, I believe you, there are probably men sitting on the porch in a wife beater and a gold crucifix in summer. Maybe on sundays they go to the park with a radio and have a picknick. But do they ask the priest to find a husband for their 12 year old daughter? I don't think so.
Utah in general is not known as a hallmark of diversity. Just think about how far you would have to drive from Short Creek before you got stopped by a cop who was not a Mormon of some kind nor the offspring of a Mormon of some kind.
Ah and rericson gets personal.
No. I do not have a boy toy. I have been living with this man since 1994 and married to him since 1996. And I have never been unfaithful and I have no doubts that he has either. I had my fun in my youth and had some adventures in the 70's. Some days I wish >I< were young but when I see handsome young men, I see sons not lovers. I never understood being attracted to someone quite a bit younger. I like spending time with people who get my jokes.
More to Chris's questions.
I think birth control is not only acceptable but recommended. I think it is morally wrong to have more children than you can take care of.
I support a woman's right to choose. I personally think abortion is wrong, but I think each woman should decide based on her circumstances and beliefs.
I am a direct descendant of a prominent New York State bloomer girl and feminist paper editor from the 1870's. I'm proud of that.
My first feminist book was by Simone de Beauvoir and I was probably 15 or so at the time. I had never heard of Andrea Dworkin or Robin Morgan until you named them, although I may have read articles by them without realizing it.
rericson, your comments about balance are just more appeasement. I find it hard to take that seriously.
betty, i hope you haven't made the mistake of thinking I give a rat's patootie what you think!
Betty, I do get your jokes LOL. I know you were just joking about me being jealous of your writing skills.
Regina said there were no FLDS ladies who had any desire to leave the FLDS during the raid, and you said you knew some who did. Then you changed that to a "details" error in your head when I called you out on it. Details indeed.
Despite your morals (which sounds like "fun" is your key to morals) your morals are not better than my morals, I am a masculist, I believe men should have the right to be men, and not women. I also believe that women should have the right to act like women without femifascists telling them they are abused because they don't want to have "fun" first, or think full time motherhood is not a "real" career.
Pliggy,
I was not aware that you have a sense of humor.
You did not call me on it cause there is nothing to call. I just didn't want to keep saying "Did" "Did Not" nor do I want to give you any proof so that you can use that against someone real.
You really want to find a reason to besmirch me, to make me little in your eyes. Something about me really bothers you.
I know you are a male chauvenist, that is quite apparent. Hows it working for you? Happy? Got peace of mind?
Well, rericson, you keep answering me directly, so you must.
Betty,
I'm right with ya kiddo. Simone de Beauvoir was a big discovery for me too...
Betty,
I feel no "threat" from you, if that is what you are trying to say. I do indeed find it funny that you think I might.
Chauvinist? Ya, I have peace of mind, if laughing at you thinking you can decide how others should live their lives. As if yours is somehow "better", and your opinion more important than anyone else's is.
Betty said...
ziggy,
I have rights, also. I have rights to believe that their religion is evil and leads to destructive behaviors.
Yes betty, right on! But remember what all you haters always say "you can 'believe' what you want you just can't 'act' on that belief!
So what makes your beliefs so special that you can act on them but I can't act on mine?
pliggy said..."I know those people in it, and not one dern thing is true except that Laurie found good story tellers. Nothing else."
pliggys way of saying he thoroughly enjoyed BANKING ON HEAVEN :-)
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Laurie, Laurie...there ya go again...ya can't resist invoking the drama queen whenever the nasty laurie crops up...can ya?
(said in my best sarah Palin voice)
You know as well as I do that the FLDS community is made up of good and bad and everything in between. That there are no boogeymen lurking around every corner....
And you know that the criticisms of your movie are legitimate. You did not even attempt to present any kind of balance. You deliberately showed a skewed vision of fundamentalist Mormon communities, and you rolled all of the different sects into one big mess...
And that does a serious injustice to those persons in those communities who are happy and trying their darndest to live good lives....
And you are enjoying the fruits of this current vendetta...so please, don't pretend you aren't...
If the film had been a comedy about UFO abductions, it would have been just as accurate.
Enjoy it? Watching innocent people walking down the road from the meeting house to the cemetery over and over again, with cutaways of women and men who couldn't lie, twist and vilify, rumormonger, or be twisted out of context enough. As a comedy, ya it was entertaining.
The problem is you and others like you are the CAUSE of the raid in Texas, and the hatred that exists for innocent people.
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>Betty said:
>rericson,
>Those other groups bother me also.
Chris: Groups you are associated with, Betty, bother many of us Mormon Fundamentalists also. Yet, we don't stomp in and try to force you and yours to live like we would want YOU to live. YOU DO!
>It's really about where you draw the line.
Chris: And, sadly, you and yours have found no line over which you won't step across if it bothers your current, ever changing sensibilities.
>At least the fundamentalist Christians have not altered their religion to state that a woman cannot be saved without her husband's invitation. Yet. The FLDS are just sort of out there near the abyss, just behind the LeBaron people and the Taliban.
Chris: All LDS believed in the above as well, at least until a few years ago.
The "LeBaron people" are a number of groups, not just one, and vary in doctrine and practices like other Mormon Fundamentalists do. But then you like to ignorantly judge and persecute with a broad brush. As arm chair chauvinists are won't to do.
chris
>Betty said...
rericson,
> I could see leaving them alone if we could wall off part of Utah and make it a theocracy for them.
Chris: They and many of us would love to do just that. But then, who would the U.S., State of Utah, and the Mormons be able to bully? It is the US and State and local governments who keep on sticking their noses in where they don't belong, and allow and cause many of the problems that they themselves are harping against. Who is invading whom, inflicting their laws on the others?
>Then they don't get any social services from the USofA or their state, but have to make it on their own.
Chris: They and we would love it to be so. Yet, your laws and society are the ones who are causing the problems and therefore many of us could care less whether the US and State governments pay for the problems they themselves create or allow to occur on their watch.
>If they are not willing to make their own theocracy, and they are not willing to live with in reasonable parameters within the republic,
Chris: LOL!!! "reasonable parameters"??? Those that YOU dictate. Your "religion" and mores inflicted upon them - at the point of a gun.
> then there it is going to continue to be the business of outsiders. We're picking up the tab for a lot of the consequences. And we didn't get kissed.
Chris: Didn't get kissed? Yes, most victims don't kiss their rapists. Society hasn't paid even a fraction of what they should have for the crimes of society against most Mormon Fundamentalists. Sad thing is, if our skin was Black you would see things under a whole different light. You treat us like sh*t, and act like you are taking the "high road". Politicians, Travesty Women, hypocrites!
> Then, of course, there's compassion for people who are actually suffering from their own belief system. But you refuse to admit they exist.
Chris: Yes, there are many of us who suffer because of your persecutions. And, some leave our society like "runaways" do from your society.
But then, you, Betty and Laurie, refuse to see the correlation. Laurie is making money off of her lies, and further perpetrating them and advertising up here. What is your excuse, Betty?
chris
rericson said:
>Near here we have a smal town named Roseto....
Roseto is 100% Roman Catholic, Italian Americans. Most of the townsfolk don't speak English as thier first language. Even those born here. They speak Italian. They have been here for many, many generations. They came as coal miners and workers in the slate industry. Roseto is located in the middle of the 'slate belt'.
They have their own church and church school, they have their Mass in Latin....it is a closed community. They marry in the community. They shun outsiders. There are more lawn virgins than one can count....
The men play bocce and dominos and drink espresso and ameretto and the women cook and clean and take care of the church and the children and cluster amongst themselves....
>How are they terribly different?
Chris: How are they different? They aren't Mormon Fundamentalists and they don't have Mormon Fundamentalist Hate Groups attacking them like Laurie, Betty, Flora Jessop, etc.
Why not? Stupid, ignorant women, men running things, they haven't assimilated into the rest of "society", "closed society", marry within the society, etc. etc. etc. Gee, they simply MUST be breaking numerous laws, forcing their children to marry through "arranged marriages" there behind those "closed doors".
I can't wait to hear Laurie's and Betty's excuses as to why the people in Roseta aren't raided and the children rounded up and taken off to "safe houses" for deprogramming.
chris
> rericson said...
> Betty, I don't know where you looked it up, or where that source got it's info...perhaps they are lumping info from nearby Bangor into things...Roseto is probably less than 1500 people, they have one church, and one school. grade k-8. They don't even have any stores..except a quick-stop gas station..and a pizza joint/mens social club...and a K of C hall
> It is a tiny hamlet.....
> It's about 12-15 miles from here...maybe a little less...and it is 100% Italian....unless someone snuck in in the night and changed his/her name...there are absolutely, positively no non-whites....
Chris: rericson, don't bother her with the facts, her mind is made up. Her tabloids she holds fast to say something different. Forget the many witnesses who have actually been there and know differently. They would rather believe those who are making money off of them selling their mostly garbage books.
chris
>Betty said...
> Chris, if it took you this long to figure out I'm a feminist, then you are not the sharpest tool in the shed. I've been talking about women's rights here for about six months now.
Chris: And of course, you Betty, being as self absorbed as you are, don't have a clue as to how long I've been reading messages on Brooke's blog. Nor, that I just figured it out. However, as with all of your previous judgements, they come swift and ignorant. Most people would rather keep their mouths shut than to open them and remove all doubt of their ignorance and faulty reasoning.
...snip...
> I am immensely amused that you think by calling me that you have 'outed' me as something horrifying.
Chris: Again, a completely ignorant assumption on your part and shows your chauvinist self absorbed personality. Projecting your true self onto others.
You STILL haven't spoken to your support of those notable Feminist women I mentioned earlier. Why is that? Afraid of the question? Hiding something?
> At least I don't think God wants me to have sex with teenagers, you know?
Chris: Does God even know your name?
chris
"Betty said...
> More to Chris's questions.
> I think birth control is not only acceptable but recommended. I think it is morally wrong to have more children than you can take care of.
>I support a woman's right to choose. I personally think abortion is wrong, but I think each woman should decide based on her circumstances and beliefs.
Chris: To choose what? Oh, that's right, death for her child. Forget about a woman's right to choose a husband when she reaches the age of majority, which ages have been set throughout the world's history at puberty and beyond, with parental consent - who know their daughters better than anyone else, including man's governments.
> I am a direct descendant of a prominent New York State bloomer girl and feminist paper editor from the 1870's. I'm proud of that.
Chris: And those with religious leanings would find much to be desired in that. Yet, they aren't out campaigning against your religious beliefs and practices.
> My first feminist book was by Simone de Beauvoir and I was probably 15 or so at the time. I had never heard of Andrea Dworkin or Robin Morgan until you named them, although I may have read articles by them without realizing it.
Chris: Thanks for answering my earlier questions more fully.
Now, is it comprehensible to you that only a small minority of Mormon Fundamentalists commit any of the crimes attributed to them? And, that some or many of the supposed attrocities attributed to the FLDS or Mormon Fundamentalists are blown way out of proportion?
chris
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