Elissa Wall vs. UEP Trust
I wrote a story in Saturday's paper about a ruling in the multi-million dollar lawsuit filed by Elissa Wall against the UEP Trust.
Bruce Wisan, trust overseer, had asked 3rd District Judge Sandra Peuler to toss the lawsuit. Peuler refused, although she narrowed the causes of action that Elissa can pursue. Peuler said that because the trust is a legal entity, it could not "conspire" with Jeffs and other trustees to batter and abuse Elissa.
Peuler ruled Elissa can go after the trust for damages for "emotional distress and outrage." The judge also ruled that Greg and Roger Hoole, Elissa's attorneys, can amend their complaint to add new information.
The lawsuit essentially holds all trust participants responsible for Elissa's marriage at age 14 to Allen Steed, her cousin, and alleged "repeated rapes."
The Hooles' tried to negotiate a settlement with Wisan but the fiduciary refused their offer. Wisan has said that if Elissa's lawsuit succeeds, it will open the door for dozens of similar claims.
Here are some excerpts from and observations about Elissa's lawsuit:
1. Third District Judge Denise Lindberg reformed the property trust to emphasize its charitable nature and removed its religious basis. But that religious purpose is key in Elissa's lawsuit. Her filing notes that the trust was established to maintain the practice of plural marriage.
2. Elissa's lawsuit also notes that until Bruce's appointment in 2005, there was ''no practical distinction between the Priesthood Work, the FLDS church and the UEP Trust."
3. It also says that "prior to the UEP Trust's recent court-ordered reformation, the UEP Trust existed to preserve and advance the religious doctrines and goals of the FLDS church or Priesthood Work.
4. In another paragraph, the lawsuit says that "one of the historical purposes of the UEP Trust was to provide housing for faithful, obedient UEP Trust participants, including newly married couples."
Lindberg gutted all that from the reformed Trust, of course — and the Hoole brothers' helped with that. No longer is the trust's purpose "to provide housing for faithful, obedient UEP Trust participants."
5. The lawsuit says that underage marriages occurred under "every president since the formation of the UEP Trust, namely Warren S. Jeffs, Presidents Rulon T. Jeffs, Leroy S. Johnson and John Y. Barlow."
6. Paragraph 28 says that Warren Jeffs kept Elissa "within a closed and sequestered community on UEP Trust land, made her (and her family) dependent on the UEP Trust for her needs, support and shelter and otherwise made it virtually impossible for her to leave and live beyond his authority."
According to testimony during Jeffs' trial, Elissa went on trips to Canada, Oregon and Las Vegas while married to Allen Steed. She also started her affair with Lamont Barlow while still married to Steed. Several of her siblings had left the community.
7. The filing refers to Allen Steed as Elissa's "cousin," correctly stating their relationship. The two have a common grandfather, but not grandmothers. That is why Arizona Judge Steven Conn dismissed the incest charge against Jeffs; it doesn't not qualify as a first-cousin relationship.
8. The trust should be held liable because all of the "repeated rapes" took place in homes on UEP property.
According to Elissa's testimony during Jeffs' trial, some of those acts were consensual and took place as she tried to "sugar up" their relationship. At least one act of intimacy took place in a truck.
9. The lawsuit says that, "Like Allen Steed, any UEP Trust participant that participated in or facilitated the illegal marriage and subsequent sexual assaults alleged herein did so to advance the UEP Trust's purpose or their actions could at least have been reasonably foreseen by the UEP Trust to occur in carrying out Warren Jeffs' and the other trustees' directives."
10. Paragraph 75: "The conduct of Warren S. Jeffs, the FLDS Church and the UEP Trust, as alleged herein, was so extreme that it went beyond all possible bounds of decency and is regarded as atrocious and utterly intolerable in a civilized society."
74 Comments:
Were any parties responsible for providing copies of any scriptures followed also named as defendants?
;)
"The conduct of Warren S. Jeffs, the FLDS Church and the UEP Trust, as alleged herein, was so extreme that it went beyond all possible bounds of decency and is regarded as atrocious and utterly intolerable in a civilized society."
Right on!
It seems that Miss Wall wants to have her cake and eat it too.
If she was not a faithful member of the FLDS then she has no right to any part of the trust. If she was having an affair she was not a faithful member.
Now she has become one of the vultures circling overhead trying to get a bite of the UEP carcass.
Dale,
If Elissa wins her lawsuit, don't you think many others will follow in her footsteps?
Elissa Wall in Wonderland needs to get a life. Either that or state exactly what is her agenda. The lawsuit is so convoluted and contradictory it's hard to believe the court is taking it seriously.
Laurie,
I'm not sure I understand your question. I was simply using her logic to show why she is not entitled to any part of the trust.
What Laurie means is that if Elissa Wall wins, others are going sue, these inbred child molesting plygs will all lose their homes and be tossed on the streets.
That would be so funny if that happens! They will be scattered and broken, then this pagan religion will finally be wiped out.
HAHAHAHA! Then we can move against the other pagan plyg molestor religions and do the same thing to them, till they are all sued into oblivion!
My name is little Elissa,
You know just who I am?
Who’d a thought I’d be a star?
And put them in this jam.
When I was growing up,
Prepared for just this day.
Becoming such a warrior,
I sure do like the pay.
I’ve come to like my label.
Wear it with such pride.
Forever through eternity,
They’ll call me “child bride”.
They said “no turning back,
You’ve mostly been controlled.
How could’ve you know what you want?
How could’ve you have known?”
This was entertaining,
Sounded good to me.
“We’ll make him responsible
And then you'll be free.”
Just a few things
First, you’ll have to do.
“Stand and say this perfect way,
We’ll help you to get though.”
Now we’re working on
The part that says step two
“Soon you’ll get your payday
We’ll help you to get though.”
So I do just what they say
Because I was controlled
How could’ve I known what I want?
How could’ve I have known?
By choice2
I hope Elissa wins and all the plygs are made homeless.
pligfighter said...
“I hope Elissa wins and all the plygs are made homeless.
2:57 PM”
Yeah, your belief system is obviously so much better. I see you won your moral code in the same cracker-jack box the FLDS found theirs in.
Poena, are you looking for a 14 year old bride? Sounds like it
God's Special One,
What you're describing is *kinda sorta along the lines* of what I've been predicting. There are sooo many victims out there from polygamy, especially disenfranchised males, and not just from the FLDS.
Who knows how many thousands of disenfranchised males from polygamy exist in the Southwestern United States.
I'm hearing a lot of talk about lawsuits, and Class Action suits against Utah and Arizona for not enforcing the law or protecting American families.
This polygamy thing is one great big mess...
Yeah, you know me so well. Try reading my post again, maybe more slowly this time.
Dale,
I'm not a lawyer, so I could be wrong, but I got the impression that she is suing for damages, not for UEP land. She's suing the UEP because it was part of the instrument used to set her up for what she has perceived to be an intolerable situation. Her standing within the church has no bearing on her accusation of abuse. The UEP is being sued because it is a) the only form of assets available to sue and b) the fact the the way the UEP is set up makes each individual within it liable to be excommunicated and left destitute if they don't comply with expectations means that the UEP is also part of her abusers.
Did I read that right, Ron, or am I totally off base?
Pligfighter,
Many on this blog are against the abuses of polygamy, however we realize that it does not open us up to using abusive language to those we disapprove of. That is known of as maturity. You do not show maturity nor do you show an ounce of compassion or intelligence. I, for one, don't want to be mistaken as one who approves of your trashy talk. Feel free to find another place to be hateful.
rebeckah, again, the plyg religions are evil, they murder, rape, steal and plunder. If the prophet ordered them to kill your children, they would do it. They are all either victims or perps, we need to arrest them, even if it numbers in the thousands...we can build prison camps for them, then the children-who are the victims can be adopted out. , they may end up committing mass suicide or mass murder of innocent outsiders anyway, so its better to be safe than sorry.
The whole law suit business is really really silly. Now every child in America who thought they had a bad start in life, is going to sue their parents and their town, claiming that they were trapped in their lifestyle.
Hello!!! Are you saying you should have never been born?? Life isn't always fair. If you're going to sue someone, sue your mother for giving birth to you. I-N-S-A-N-I-T-Y.
pligfighter, there are so many problems with your post it is difficult to believe that I am going to reply, but I guess you can’t be any more delusional than someone that thinks Jesus cares how many wives he has, so here goes.
The problem caused by the FLDS and other extreme religions is best fought by talking about what is actually happening. Accusing them of murder and suggesting that we build prison camps for them does not help the cause of justice, it merely distracts from the conversation we should be having. The best thing we can do is just have an open an honest discussion about what is actually happening, given that, all else will follow.
ztgstmv said...
“Hello!!! Are you saying you should have never been born?? Life isn't always fair.”
"Being born is like being kidnapped. And then sold into slavery."
-- Andy Warhol
Poena, the plygs are child molestors and greedy money grubbers who steal money from other people and the taxpayers. We have to do something about them.
They are inbred and evil incarnate
pligfighter said...
“They are inbred and evil incarnate”
I suspect that you know nothing of evil or of the ”plygs.” In fact, I suspect you are either a troll just trying to compensate for all the times your mother forgot to hug you or a FLDS apologist trying to distract everyone from having a legitimate conversation about the abuse that is actually happening. Either way, I would give you about 2/10.
Poena, why don't you read what Flora and Carolyn and others have said about them and then get back with us, there are thousands of horror stories about the plygs, too many of them for it not to be true.
Pligfighter,
Spew rhetoric all you want. Most of the people on this blog are more interested in the truth. Most of us are mature enough to realize that the truth is not what Flora and her fellows write, nor is it the rosy picture painted at the truth-will-prevail site, it is somewhere in between. If you want to continue talking hate and making gross assumptions with no evidence, feel free. I certainly can't stop you. However, since you have the intelligence to use a computer and get on the Internet I'd like to believe that you could have the intelligence to evaluate the truth for yourself instead of being spoonfed just one slanted side of a story.
Yes, there is evil in the FLDS community. Newsflash, there is evil in our community too. What you are advocating is evil. Lock up women who have been victimized (according to you), make them prostitutes (hmmm, isn't that what the Flora claimed that the FLDS tell their daughters will happen to them if they leave), and adopt their children away from them. Yeah, right. You're certifiable -- I'm just not sure if it's stupid or crazy that you're certifiable for.
You tell 'em how it is Pligfighter!! All are either victims or perpetrators! Worse than terrorist evidently. Lock 'em up until they prove their innocence.
And if there's any doubt it, ask Ron to tell us those details. That would make it a FACT.
kbp said...
"You tell 'em how it is Pligfighter!! All are either victims or perpetrators! Worse than terrorist evidently. Lock 'em up until they prove their innocence."
This is why I suspect Pligfighter is an alt of one of our resident FLDS apologist. Make a ridiculous argument on an alt, then come back and say “see all FLDS haters are ridiculous.” Either way, pligfighter, please crawl back under whatever rock you come from.
I got a laugh out of it. I can't think of anyone that has been a part of discussions that would set up a fake ID to post comments like that.
Really, they only difference is that this Pligfighter is saying what has been said before by others, just put it all in a few comments.
kbp said...
“Really, they only difference is that this Pligfighter is saying what has been said before by others, just put it all in a few comments.”
I don’t think it’s that unreasonable. I know quite a few people who use this tactic. Restate someone else’s argument with just enough exaggeration to make it seem ridiculous and then present it like it is what they said… Kind of like you just did. Not to mention, how successful he/she was at changing the entire conversation away from the real abuse being committed by the FLDS to imaginary governmental abuse. I am sure the tin-foil-hat nutters are loving this.
pligfighter,
You are a little behind on the details, aren't ya?
You sound like a slightly more ignorant version of harley (if it were possible).
"...the real abuse being committed by the FLDS"
There you go! Was that Mr. or Mrs' FLDS?
*****
WC,
That does resemble Harley come to think of it!
kbp said...
“There you go! Was that Mr. or Mrs' FLDS?”
Both, the men who abuse the women and children, and the mothers who watch it happen and do nothing.
Kinda hard to argue with a straight face that you were "forced" to live in an isolated community & be dependent upon them when you spent pages & pages in your book on how much time you spent at work and driving around in your truck. Oh, and also described in detail all the trips you made & places you lived besides Short Creek. Whoops.
This is truly one of those twilight zone issues. On one hand you can make the argument that no matter how egregious the behavior of Jeffs was in this case, that the beneficiaries of the trust should not suffer. On the other hand you can say that if not for the rank and file beneficiaries of the UEP trust, that Jeffs would not have so much power.
As a lawyer, I just don't see Elissa Wall holding the assets of the UEP liable. Wisan is somewhat painted into a corner since all he has to offer is property. If he had more cash, he might be able to settle this case.
Elissa was mentally enslaved and brainwashed, all the plyg women are, so the trips don't mean anything, she was too messed up at the time to realize Allen steed was raping her, good thing she broke free and realized she was being raped.
The FLDS plygs are nothing but parasatical trash who rape women and cheat "gentiles" and sponge off welfare everyday. They breed like rabbits and leach off of hardworking americans. They are nothing more than cockroaches.
Look at colorado, since they have moved in, they have lowered property values and a local real estate agent said they are a plague. You can't really blame the unfortunate locals. How would you like it if a bunch of FLDS plyg trash moved in to your neighborhood and stunk up the place?
If Elissa wins her lawsuit than others will also sue, then the police will have to move in and kick all those pathetic plyg families out of their homes, I can't wait, will be laughing my ass off when that happens.
Hey Elissa,
Since you're suing everyone, why don't you sue Ford for making the truck where you and hubby got busy? Hmmmm?
Ron, no one thought Warren would have been convicted of "accessory to rape" either because they were saying no one proved a rape actually occured, but that pathetic loser is in jail now. Trust me, any jury is going to side against the FLDS no matter what the law says. They are finished! That is why the texas evidence will be admitted, who is going to side with FLDS baby rapers?
PA:
"Both, the men who abuse the women and children, and the mothers who watch it happen and do nothing."
You identified a group of 10,000. Are you "pligfighter"?
Riki:
"Kinda hard to argue with a straight face that you were "forced" to live in an isolated community & be dependent upon them when you spent pages & pages in your book on how much time you spent at work and driving around in your truck. Oh, and also described in detail all the trips you made & places you lived besides Short Creek. Whoops."
I predict claims for injuries created by the UEP will arise from her present relationship.
Deep thoughts in her subconscious, in which she is still not aware of, had her trying to ESCAPE the pressures, so the resulting conduct was to run in an effort to boink anyone and later leave Steed, latching on to that new boinker to help fill the void that a lifetime of depending on the trust had created.
She's yet to realize the UEP is an accessory to the continuous rapes she is suffering in her present relationship.
Riki,
"Kinda hard to argue with a straight face that you were "forced" to live in an isolated community & be dependent upon them when you spent pages & pages in your book on how much time you spent at work and driving around in your truck. Oh, and also described in detail all the trips you made & places you lived besides Short Creek. Whoops."
When was the last time you had to pick up and leave everthing you knew and understood for a place that was pretty foreign to you? With no money, no support group, no idea of where to turn? How do you even feel you're in a position to judge whether or not Elissa felt trapped and helpless? Just because you don't like what she says it doesn't mean that it isn't the exact truth about how she felt. No one knows how another person feels. No one should feel they have the right to discount the feelings another person expresses.
On a more serious note, I can't imagine it being a smart move to write a book before this trial or the one Steed faces, if it ever goes to court.
...and I'd imagine Utah is better off in Warren's case if Steed never goes to trial.
Reb:
"When was the last time you had to pick up and leave everthing you knew and understood for a place that was pretty foreign to you? With no money, no support group, no idea of where to turn?"
?????
She's with the same guy she was boinking before she left her husband.
When was the last time you had to pick up and leave everthing you knew and understood for a place that was pretty foreign to you?
Uh, she went on trips to Las Vegas and Lake Powell, wore some clothes that were FLDS "sexy" and Allen Steed didn't notice her cuz he was too busy watching TV?
What about her trip to Oregon to visit FAMILY who had already left, she discussed with them her desire to "escape", Exxxcuuuuse Meeee!! She is in Oregon! Hadn't she already "escaped"?
The level of stupidity of this blog is really amazing!
k,
Just because she left to be with the man she had an affair with it doesn't follow that it was an easy step for her to make. She had children and custody issues to worry about. I imagine she had worried about how she was going to support herself and her children, even if this man stayed faithful to her (and given her background I wouldn't be surprised if she wasn't worried that he might betray her too). In short, it was not likely the glib and obnoxious little "lets shack our adulterous selves up together" scenario that you try to portray. You people really are good at trying to make everyone else look like slime, aren't you? I firmly believe that what goes around comes around, and I wish I could be a fly on the wall when your intolerance comes home to roost in your own rafters.
d,
Feel free to apply my previous post to you too. It's clear you and k really are men because you're absolutely clueless.
Duaneh1 said the following:
wore some clothes that were FLDS "sexy"
Hmmm, FLDS sexy? Isn't that rather an oxymoron?
Ron read her book! Yeah she was wearing clothes that were "sexy" by FLDS standards, Allen didn't notice, probably why she started screwing around-wanted attention!
Rebeckah, leaving someone or making big life changes is never easy, if I decided to divorce my wife, it would be difficult and stressful, likewise with her, such is it with life, marriage, and love.
Also does anybody remember in Carolyn's book when she went to complain to Warren Jeffs about what a jerk Merrill was, Warren asked her "do you want a release?", she declined because according to her, she would be "forced" into a marriage with someone elese?
The more I dig deeper, the more I realize what a bunch of total bullshit we've been fed!
d,
I'm not going to argue that there have been exaggerations in published accounts. I haven't read the books, but the excerpts held up as examples seem pretty clearly one (negative) sided. That does not mean that there was not pain, fear, feelings of entrappment and other valid points. All I'm saying is that only the person involved truly knows what their feelings are in any given situation. People who scoff at the pain that Flora, Carolyn, Elissa and others show, because they don't think that pain is reasonable or valid, are discounting them as human beings. It simply compounds the pain, continues the wounds and guarantees that there will be more anger, more outbursts, more pain. If people want their feelings to be taken seriously by others, they need to accept the feelings that others express. Just because you, from the outside looking in, don't see a person who was "trapped" it doesn't mean that she didn't feel trapped. You simply don't and can't know what another person feels. Even when they try to express those feelings, you can only understand to a degree, not fully, because each person reacts differently to any given situation.
Duane ranted in the following manner:
Allen didn't notice, probably why she started screwing around-wanted attention!
The more I dig deeper, the more I realize what a bunch of total bullshit we've been fed!
I love how you throw out the label "bipolar" for me. Sounds to me like you've got some serious issues. Dude, get an anger management class, because no matter how much you want it, you're not going to get your 14 year old bride.
Well, at least not without a hefty prison sentence to go along with it.
"It's clear you and k really are men because you're absolutely clueless."
??
Being a man, did I miss how it was Steed's fault she had to be unfaithful?
It sounds like a split up in any community. Someone was fooling and left.
Or was that a move to shift those you're responding to into a defensive position, avoiding the facts, used often by someone else here?
Ron, in New Hampshire I can marry a 13 year old with parental consent, would be perfectly legal!
I guess NH is a sex perv state huh? Why don't we arrest everyone there? Any state that would allow 13 year olds to marry "old geezers" is just full of pervs, maybe take every resident's child in custody "just to be on the safe side".
Duane
Nice try, but it still requires uudicial approval. Plus to marry your 13 year old bride you'd need to be between 14 and 17.
I know you want your young bride, but it ain't gonna happen.
Geez dude, just find someone your age.
k,
"??
Being a man, did I miss how it was Steed's fault she had to be unfaithful?"
hmm, I don't recall mentioning Steed at all. I've referred to the fact that since homes within the UEP are only allowed to the "faithful" that there is pressure to conform to the "rules" whether you feel comfortable or not. That would be a reasonable ground to feel "trapped" right there. You're the one bringing up adultery.
"It sounds like a split up in any community. Someone was fooling and left."
Not quite -- Elissa didn't want to marry Steed, she was pressured into it. That's not your basic marriage set up and leads to all kinds of ramifications leading to the "fooling and left" part. You didn't live Elissa's life and you really aren't qualified to determine which of her feelings are valid or not.
"Or was that a move to shift those you're responding to into a defensive position, avoiding the facts, used often by someone else here?"
Methinks, given your own shifting of focus, that you're projecting your own issues on me. I was talking about understanding feelings of being trapped. As a female and a single parent for most of my children's life, I can understand Elissa's feelings -- and I WASN'T pressured into a marriage I didn't want. I believe that, as a man, you feel that a woman should have the emotions you decree acceptable and no others. It's something I've noticed in many men. The fact is, you don't know how Elissa did or does feel and your criticism of her reflects poorly on your own levels of understanding and compassion. It's as simple as that.
Duane,
The NH Waiver on age does not show any restrictions on age difference that I see in this guide, nor was it apparent in the STATUTES..
I won't be heading there, nor would I have sent my daughter at that age, but unless I see something different, this sourced from the state looks to be fact to me.
******
Rebeckah,
Then evidently all that pressure from the UEP, however any wish to say the trust created it, flew out the window as she was screwing around
...and it was not such a terrible task for her to leave.
You are the one that said she was "With no money, no support group, no idea of where to turn". The inaccuracy of that was pointed out to you.
You then started telling us we must be men, just would not understand... That was the "shift of focus".
Then the big difference comes out!
"As a female and a single parent for most of my children's life, I can understand Elissa's feelings
... The fact is, you don't know how Elissa did or does feel..."
So ONLY you know how Elissa feels, her having to endure those unfaithful acts and escaping with her NEW man,
...and it's a "FACT" you claim that I just don't know.
Now that's all in the open and cleared up, it's obvious I'm clueless how she felt dealing with what she has described as those acts of rape
...in between the times she said it was not!
I've referred to the fact that since homes within the UEP are only allowed to the "faithful" that there is pressure to conform to the "rules" whether you feel comfortable or not. That would be a reasonable ground to feel "trapped" right there.
Well, if you don't like it and feel "trapped", then get the fuck out! Simple really! There was no pretense that you owned or had title to your house, it was UEP property and everyone knew it!
Poor Elissa, the horror the young ones went through living in Short Creek; building fires out in the sticks, slamming down those beers, smokin' weed, ripping it up in the desert on a KX250 dirt bike, listening to Bon Jovi, boinking those guys, trips to Las Vegas, Lake Powell, St. George...Ahhh the horror! All of this at the height of Warren the Terrible's rule...must have been hell on Earth!
Brides must be at least 13 years of age and grooms must be at least 14 years of age before their parents can apply for a judicial waiver.
No upper limit Ron! So I guess if I lived in New Hampshire, I could get that 13 yo bride and it would perfectly legal! Sorry you POS! your pathetic attempt at kidde sex shame won't work, I won't tell you how old me wife is, i'm in my early forties, my wife could be a teen for all you know but I will say this, IT IS PERFECTLY LEGAL!!
Hateful and miserable bigot trash that you and your ilk are!
Duane
News flash dude. Those early marriage laws are designed for the young girl who accidentally gets knocked up by her teenage boyfriend.
No one is going to condone an older man and a 13-14 year old girl marrying or having sex.
I know that's a grave disappointment to you, but it's just the way things are. It's certainly not bigotry or hatred.
Your attitude is bordering on hate right now.
kbp
Geez dude, I'm beginning to wonder about your reading comprehension.
Your link says the following:
A female
between the age of 13 and 17 years and a male between
the age of 14 and 17 years can be married only with the
permission of their parent (guardian) and a waiver.
I read that as teenagers can marry teenagers with a waiver. Maybe I'm drunk, but it just appears quite clear to me.
I know that's a grave disappointment to you, but it's just the way things are
Damn! I had my eye on that New Hampshirean 13 yo.
But Ron, doesn't it say that a female between 13 and 17 needs permission to marry a man of any age, and a guy between 14 and 17 needs permission to marry a woman of any age?
I'm wondering, maybe the Short Creek teens were only limited to Mexican Skunk weed. Warren banned BC bud, Sinsemillia, and other fine quality greenhouse grown dope. That SOB! Poor abused kids, didn't have a choice in their selection of "stash".
duane
Those 13 year old New Hampshire teens are safe from you. It's those horny 14 to 17 year old New Hampshire boys that they and their parents need to be worried about.
Ron, you are nothing more than redneck bigot trash! You,Harley, Poena absurdio, etc...
You know...Rabble rousers, torch and pitchfork crowd, the mob, witch hunters....the dupes that flora, carolyn, and laurie roused up into a frenzy. Your and your ilk are not the first in history to get suckered into an orgy of hatred. The genetic makeup of rabble such as you are directly responsible for the persecution of early Christians, Armenians, Native Americans, Darfur, Bosnians, and some other religious group that referred to outsiders as "gentiles" and were labled parasites and money grubbing cheats-can't think of their name though.
Anyway the point is, this anti FLDS orgy of violence, hatred, child snatching, etc...in the context of human history...is nothing unusual at all...there are always plenty of folks who will believe everything they are fed...useful idiots as Lenin so aptly put it.
Rebekah: When was the last time you had to pick up and leave everthing you knew and understood for a place that was pretty foreign to you? With no money, no support group, no idea of where to turn?
Did you read her book? She knew where her brothers & sisters who'd left the church lived. She had money. She had a car. She planned a "secret" trip to Vegas at this time as well as a trip to Seattle. Give me a break.
Rebekah: Read the book. She had no children with Allen Steed. In fact, she never even told Allen or Jeffs about the miscarriages she had, yet wants to blame them (especially Jeffs) for telling her to fix her marriage by having children.
Duane
Just continue with your orgy of name calling. How you equate people saying "no 14 year old brides" with bigotry simply dumbfounds me.
I'm sure if I thought hard enough I could come up with some appropriate names to call you, but frankly, you're simply not worth the brain energy.
Ron,
If there was some age restriction, like you're saying, I'd hope they would provide better details on it. Your "reading" of it would not allow any 18+ YO boy to marry a 17 YO girl...
One would think the attorneys that reviewed the legislation would have also thought about the idea it would be important for BOTH the individuals under 18 YO to have permission, so they'd have wrote it to say
"...married only with the permission of their parentS (guardianS)".
In the first link, under "AGE", it says "(See Waiver)". That waiver tells us "When either of the applicants is not yet 18 years of age but meets the minimum age requirement (female 13-17 and male 14-17) he/she may request permission to marry from a justice of the superior court or a judge of probate of the county in which one of the applicants resides."
It also states; "When "good/special" cause is shown waivers may be obtained...", but I did not find any definition for that there or in the statutes.
I do not read the age restrictions into it that you do.
Should we assume they meant for the "parent (guardian)" to be read as plural?
Poena - which regular poster here do you think is using "PF" as an alter ego? To me, PF sounds like someone who has been posting as an anon on Ron's blog for some time.
Lucille said...
“Poena - which regular poster here do you think is using "PF" as an alter ego? To me, PF sounds like someone who has been posting as an anon on Ron's blog for some time.”
Lucille, I don’t know the people here well enough, I just know that what he is doing is a pretty common trick people use during arguments. Restate your opponents argument with several slight exaggerations so that it still appears to be the same argument but with enough ridiculous claims that the entire argument can be discarded without actually addressing any of the concerns. I don’t know for sure that he is a FLDS apologist alt, but he is either being ridiculous intentionally or he is truly ignorant. Either way, he can be rightfully ignored.
duaneh1 said...
“Ron, you are nothing more than redneck bigot trash! You,Harley, Poena absurdio, etc...
You know...Rabble rousers, torch and pitchfork crowd, the mob, witch hunters.”
Haha. Duaneh1, this is truly rich. How many people in the FLDS community have been sent to “repent at a distance” for thought-crimes? I honestly wonder if there is anything at all the FLDS could do that would strain credulity in your mind. Do you actually possess a moral code? Or is it simply a matter of “whatever the prophet says?”
Lucille:
"PF sounds like someone who has been posting as an anon on Ron's blog for some time."
I suspect not, I'll throw my dice with what Poena said after your post. Since 'bigot', 'hater' and 'I'm-just-amazed-by-your-lack of-enlightenment-and-blinded-by-my-own-light' are a commonly held belief, I'll join up and suggest that Plygfighter is a hater of flds-haters, and this is his MO. He's just a common ordinary poster that needs to be the center of attention.
k,
"As a female and a single parent for most of my children's life, I can understand Elissa's feelings
... The fact is, you don't know how Elissa did or does feel..."
Touche -- mea culpa. I spoke poorly. I should say I empathize, not that I understand. I do stand by my claim that no one can really understand another's feelings and that you can only gain a partial understand from what they say.
I am not saying that as a man you cannot understand, or empathize, I'm just saying that as a man you are unlikely to be willing to. I realize it's a generalization, but in my experience the average male doesn't care a fig for the feelings of another unless they meet his expectations of how they *should* feel.
d,
"Hateful and miserable bigot trash that you and your ilk are!"
From where I'm sitting, you're pretty hateful, not to mention crude, yourself.
Pot, meet kettle.
Riki,
No, I haven't read the book. I thought she did have children. Clearly I'm mistaken.
Riki:
"yet wants to blame them (especially Jeffs) for telling her to fix her marriage by having children."
It seems like there are always 2 opposite worlds being described as the FLDS, one of which maintains that everything being said by apostates is a lie. Wish I knew. But I do know that I'd be pretty ticked off in later years if someone I valued as a religious prophet told me when I was too young to figure out my own mind to fix my marriage by having children, whether progeny resulted or not. I assume you would also say Elissa is lying and it never happened. I have no idea if it did or not.
Silver: But I do know that I'd be pretty ticked off in later years if someone I valued as a religious prophet told me when I was too young to figure out my own mind to fix my marriage by having children
Silver, you missed the point. She went to Warren Jeffs with Allen to discuss problems in their marriage & repeatedly expressed frustration in her book that the only advice he gave was to have children. She never told him or Allen about the miscarriages, just paints them as heartless jerks. While I won't go out on a limb & say that Warren Jeffs would have told her anything differently had he known or that Allen would have acted any differently, at the same time she didn't give them the opportunity. It's all there in her book if you read it close enough.
Riki:
"Silver, you missed the point"
That is undoubtedly true Riki. There are many points here an outsider cannot possibly grasp. I was in fact quoting you word for word, and responding to your own words exactly as you said them. Thank you for clarifying what you meant, and frankly I still don't grasp your point. But it doesn't matter, I'm not the one choosing to live this way, so whether I fully understand it or not doesn't affect anyone.
Silver,
I think the point is the even though Elissa was clearly a 14 year old girl and not remotely even ready to be married off, and even though she responded in a fairly normal teenaged fashion by making mistakes and bad choices, the point is that she wasn't happy and has had the extreme gall to have expected the adults around her to have protected her. When they didn't do so she committed the unpardonable sin of saying something in public about it. So really, no matter how Elissa might have handled her pain the moment she spoke out she would be reviled, her character trashed, and all the blame for the fallout from the situation that the adults in this community put her in would be placed squarely on her shoulders. At least, that's how it seems to me.
duenah said..."Hateful and miserable bigot trash that you and your ilk are!"
Oh how the wicked spew venom and gnash their teeth when cornered.
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