Sifting through the report
What about these statements in the ''Eldorado Investigation" Report released today by the Texas Department of Family and Protective Services?
Of the 146 families investigated, 62 percent had a confirmed finding of abuse or neglect.
Keep reading and you'll see the report states that 96 percent of the cases, involving 424 children, have been nonsuited, or dismissed, because the children have been deemed safe with their families after their parents signed safety plans and took parenting classes.
Girls told investigators that no age was too young for marriage and that ''the Prophet'' determined when and who a girl should marry.
As I recall, just one girl made that statement. While it may be true that one in four girls between the ages of 12 and 17 were married, it is equally true that three out of every four girls that age were not married.
For the Department of Family and Protective Services, the Yearning for Zion case is about sexual abuse of girls and children who were taught that underage marriages are a way of life.
See above.
A family violence shelter in San Angelo called the hotline after taking a call from someone who said she was a 16-year-old girl who had suffered sexual and physical abuse by her husband while at the ranch.
That's all the report says about the call, believed to be a hoax and linked to a woman in Colorado Springs with a history of making such false claims. The report talks about a case involving one family being dismissed because of "an inability to locate the subjects of the allegations." The department nonsuited the case involving the supposed victim, who was never found, and her alleged husband, who said he had never been to the ranch.
At the 14-day hearing, DFPS presented evidence gathered in the investigation that at least 20 young girls and women at the ranch, including five who were still minors at the time of the removal, had become pregnant from the ages of 13 to 17.
That count included a woman who allegedly gave birth in 1993, when she was 13, and another who was 22 when she conceived her first child. Of the five minors on a list presented in court, two were 15, two were 16 and one was 17 when they conceived a child.
Dr. Bruce Perry expressed his professional opinion that the pervasive belief system condoning underage marriage and childbirth among the residents of the ranch posed a danger to all of the children, regardless of gender or age.
Perry backed the state's concerns about the group's practices but said the youngest children were in the least danger of being harmed by any ''unhealthy" beliefs held by their parents. He also said that ''the younger you are, the more destructive it is to be removed from your home environment.''
DFPS gave providers instructions on the children's lifestyle, including their diet and dress, and worked with providers to secure additional traditional FLDS clothing and copies of the Book of Mormon for the children.
This is when the FLDS mothers themselves launched an effort to provide clothing for their children while they were in state custody. DFPS confiscated the children's copies of the Book of Mormon because at least some had inscriptions from or photos of Warren Jeffs taped inside them. That created a problem because the FLDS said at the time they use only pre-1978 copies of the scripture, which are not exactly easy to find. Another problem occurred when Judge Barbara Walther asked the department to see if the LDS Church would provide officials to lead church services for the FLDS children; the LDS Church has disavowed any connection with fundamentalist groups, particularly the FLDS.
The earliest marriage was in 2004 and the most recent known marriage took place in July 2006.
All of these marriages occurred while FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs was either keeping a low profile or in hiding. It is unclear where the first marriage took place, since construction on the ranch began in earnest in 2004. Most of the indictments related to underage marriages issued by the Schleicher County Grand Jury involve Jeffs and ranch bishop Merril Jessop's daughters, sons and granddaughters. Until September 2005, it was legal in Texas for a girl as young as 14 to marry with parent's permission; the legal age was then raised to 16. Of course, any polygamous marriages would fall outside the law.
The children were kept in sibling groups to the extent possible.
And:
Unlike the 14-day adversarial hearing, the status hearings were individualized to a specific child or maternal sibling group to the extent that maternal sibling groups could be established.
During the May status hearings, attorneys described siblings scattered from Amarillo to Liverpool, despite pledges from Texas Child Protective Services to keep them together. Parents' attorneys objected repeatedly to the use of boilerplate service plans that lack specific details about their clients' situations or what they must do to regain their children. Child caseworkers said the plans were devised by a committee at the state office and specific requirements will be available by June 2.
Of the 146 families investigated, 62 percent had a confirmed finding of abuse or neglect.
Keep reading and you'll see the report states that 96 percent of the cases, involving 424 children, have been nonsuited, or dismissed, because the children have been deemed safe with their families after their parents signed safety plans and took parenting classes.
Girls told investigators that no age was too young for marriage and that ''the Prophet'' determined when and who a girl should marry.
As I recall, just one girl made that statement. While it may be true that one in four girls between the ages of 12 and 17 were married, it is equally true that three out of every four girls that age were not married.
For the Department of Family and Protective Services, the Yearning for Zion case is about sexual abuse of girls and children who were taught that underage marriages are a way of life.
See above.
A family violence shelter in San Angelo called the hotline after taking a call from someone who said she was a 16-year-old girl who had suffered sexual and physical abuse by her husband while at the ranch.
That's all the report says about the call, believed to be a hoax and linked to a woman in Colorado Springs with a history of making such false claims. The report talks about a case involving one family being dismissed because of "an inability to locate the subjects of the allegations." The department nonsuited the case involving the supposed victim, who was never found, and her alleged husband, who said he had never been to the ranch.
At the 14-day hearing, DFPS presented evidence gathered in the investigation that at least 20 young girls and women at the ranch, including five who were still minors at the time of the removal, had become pregnant from the ages of 13 to 17.
That count included a woman who allegedly gave birth in 1993, when she was 13, and another who was 22 when she conceived her first child. Of the five minors on a list presented in court, two were 15, two were 16 and one was 17 when they conceived a child.
Dr. Bruce Perry expressed his professional opinion that the pervasive belief system condoning underage marriage and childbirth among the residents of the ranch posed a danger to all of the children, regardless of gender or age.
Perry backed the state's concerns about the group's practices but said the youngest children were in the least danger of being harmed by any ''unhealthy" beliefs held by their parents. He also said that ''the younger you are, the more destructive it is to be removed from your home environment.''
DFPS gave providers instructions on the children's lifestyle, including their diet and dress, and worked with providers to secure additional traditional FLDS clothing and copies of the Book of Mormon for the children.
This is when the FLDS mothers themselves launched an effort to provide clothing for their children while they were in state custody. DFPS confiscated the children's copies of the Book of Mormon because at least some had inscriptions from or photos of Warren Jeffs taped inside them. That created a problem because the FLDS said at the time they use only pre-1978 copies of the scripture, which are not exactly easy to find. Another problem occurred when Judge Barbara Walther asked the department to see if the LDS Church would provide officials to lead church services for the FLDS children; the LDS Church has disavowed any connection with fundamentalist groups, particularly the FLDS.
The earliest marriage was in 2004 and the most recent known marriage took place in July 2006.
All of these marriages occurred while FLDS leader Warren S. Jeffs was either keeping a low profile or in hiding. It is unclear where the first marriage took place, since construction on the ranch began in earnest in 2004. Most of the indictments related to underage marriages issued by the Schleicher County Grand Jury involve Jeffs and ranch bishop Merril Jessop's daughters, sons and granddaughters. Until September 2005, it was legal in Texas for a girl as young as 14 to marry with parent's permission; the legal age was then raised to 16. Of course, any polygamous marriages would fall outside the law.
The children were kept in sibling groups to the extent possible.
And:
Unlike the 14-day adversarial hearing, the status hearings were individualized to a specific child or maternal sibling group to the extent that maternal sibling groups could be established.
During the May status hearings, attorneys described siblings scattered from Amarillo to Liverpool, despite pledges from Texas Child Protective Services to keep them together. Parents' attorneys objected repeatedly to the use of boilerplate service plans that lack specific details about their clients' situations or what they must do to regain their children. Child caseworkers said the plans were devised by a committee at the state office and specific requirements will be available by June 2.
228 Comments:
And your post means what Brooke?
Yes until 2005 children could get married younger but they had to have parent written consent and Judge approve it.
They had to apply for a license.
There was more than one call to the shelter about abuse of a girl at the ranch.
The first came on March 28, another on March 29, and the shelter turned it into CPS on the March 30.
This is a novel for Christmas. It will be interesting later, when a jury for a civil complaint reads what the CPS' mindset still is almost 8 months later.
I've seen strings of comments here with fewer conclusions based on suppositions, which is tough to do.
I wish I had more time, it is full of BS to point out. This effort will backfire on them. It reads like Langford wrote it.
And harley, all the calls were hoaxes, and instead admitting that, CPS only tells lies and half truths.
In 2004, that particular family may well have not even been in Texas. In 2008 that means we are talking about a bride who is now, at her youngest, 16. Only 7 of those 12 (and there are only 10 charges of sexual assault against a child) even have children, and the FLDS don't use birth control, so that certainly indicates not all those marriages were consumated. Yet CPS seems to be seriously claiming that it does a one year old baby more harm to be in the same vicinity as a 16 year old bride than to be yanked forcefully from his mother's arms and placed in foster care, separated from everything he knows, and in most cases, from his siblings, too (CPS made very little effort to keep siblings together). CPS obviously did more harm to the majority of these children than the FLDS did.
It is not acceptable to traumatize 400 children to 'save' 12, even assuming that one of those twelve is not the nonexistant Sarah.
harley, this is what it means: It means just what Brooke said. I.e. the "underage marriages" were largely confined to the families of Warren Jeffs and Merril Jessop (possibly alliance marriages?). Further, the fact that the law change raised the age of marital consent from 14 to 16 may not technically be significant, it is significant in substance, since the only element missing from the legality equasion before the law is the polygamy factor -- and polygamy isn't CPS area of expertise or their domain is it? That's the arena of Law Enforcement.
On the whole, it's just quite rich for CPS to be screaming "child abuse" regarding consenting relationships among a handful of 15 year olds and their chosen partners, and extrapolating heinous crimes from this, for the public to drool over. It's even more egregious for CPS to use this shaky charge of child abuse based on a handful of unorthodox marriages by fully pubescent teenagers to cast a net over hundreds of babies, toddlers, and middle schoolers and put them in its pre-adoption roles.
"At the 14-day hearing, DFPS presented evidence gathered in the investigation that at least 20 young girls and women at the ranch, including five who were still minors at the time of the removal, had become pregnant from the ages of 13 to 17.
That count included a woman who allegedly gave birth in 1993, when she was 13, and another who was 22 when she conceived her first child. Of the five minors on a list presented in court, two were 15, two were 16 and one was 17 when they conceived a child."
Okay, I must be brain dead from three days with all 4 grandchildren. Are they saying a 13 year old gave birth? Or is this article saying that the 13 year old is as bogus as a 22 year old "teen"? Anyone know?
Brooke Adams said:
"while it may be true that one in four girls between the ages of 12 and 17 were married, it is equally true that three out of every four girls that age were not married."
CPS is not charged with reporting on the 3, but only on the 1.
Oh CPS is charged all right. They took the other three out of four into custody and forced speculums up their ____.
Look to the parents charging CPS with rape.
CPS is charged with reporting on FOUR HUNDRED SIXTY NINE (469).
They want YOU to focus on those they report on.
They'll get the opportunity to clarify this narrative in a federal court.
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1As soon as it was morning, the priests convened a meeting with the whole Council.[a] They bound FLDS men with chains, led them away, and handed them over to Bush. 2Bush asked him, “Are you Gods?”
FLDS men[b] answered him, “You say so.”
3The priests and CPS kept accusing them of many things. 4So Bush asked them again, “Don't you have any answer? Look how many accusations they're bringing against you!” 5But since FLDS men no longer answered, Bush was astonished.
6At every holiday[c] Bush[d] would pardon any one person whom the people[e] requested. 7Now there was a man named Bin Laden. He had been with the insurgents who had committed murder during the rebellion. 8So the crowd came and began to request that Bush[f] do for them what he always did.[g] 9Bush answered them, “Do you want me to Pardon FLDS men?” 10because he knew that the priests had handed them over due to jealousy.8
11But the priests stirred up the crowd to get him to pardon Bin Laden for them instead. 12So Bush asked them again, “Then what should I do with the men you call[h] FLDS Gods?”
13They shouted back, “Crucify them!”
14Bush asked them, “Why? What have they done wrong?”
But they shouted even louder, “Crucify them!”
15So Bush, wanting to satisfy the crowd, pardoned Bin Laden for them, but he had FLDS men handed over to be crucified.
16The soldiers led FLDS men[i] into the courtyard (that is, the governor's headquarters)[j] and called out the whole guard. 17They dressed them in a purple robes, twisted some thorns into a victor's crown, and placed them on their heads.[k] 18They began to greet them, “Long live the Gods!” 19They kept hitting them on their heads with a sticks, spitting on them, kneeling in front of them, and worshiping them. 20When they had finished making fun of them, they stripped them of their purple robes, put their own clothes back on them, and led them away to crucify them.
21They forced certain passers-by , who happened to be coming in from Mexico, to carry their [m] crosses. 22They took FLDS men[n] to a place in Texas, called the Skull Place. 23They tried to give them whiskey, but they wouldn't accept it.
24Then they crucified them. They divided their clothes among themselves by throwing dice to see what each one would get. 25It was nine in the morning[o] when they crucified them. 26The written notice of the charge against them read, “The Sexual Abuse Gods of FLDS.”
Ho-ho-ho! Merry Christmas!
Well put Rubytuesday. Your message illustrates part of the reason this problem will not be mitigated any time soon; the FLDS thrive on the experience of persecution.(Which is not to say they have not undergone devastating losses, or that it is not painful. But then neurotic suffering is painful too.)
And Silver says..."they're blood be upon us and on our children!"
heh, it's obvious you aren't a Christian...or else you'd see the parallels (to persecution of Christians throughout history) as plain as day...
Yea, and all that will live Godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution
2 Tim. 3:12
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you.
2Cor 6: 17
146 families living in how many buildings?
I did a quick scan of our neighborhood and there are 40 families living in a 2 block radius.
9 of those families have children. Three of those families have children with daughters aging 12-16.
The 16 year old just got her first job.
A 13 year old had her ears pierced last year.
The 12 year old is in dance class and has been since she was 8.
No underage marriages, no legal or spiritual husbands. No one practicing polygamy.
No babies having babies.
None of us share a kitchen.
"1 out of 4 girls were married. Three were not."
146 families and none of them knew?
B.S.
This is like saying that a child was abused and had one limb broken. But the other three limbs were not.
Should Texas have taken all the Children?
imo YES!!
Walton,
I agree with you, it just doesn't wash.
It's creepy to me when mothers don't protect their young.
z posted..."...saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you."
Verily Verily I say unto thee, DO NOT impregnate little girls, and DO NOT live on "unclean" handouts because the "unclean thing" will own thee.
And verily verily I say unto thee, if ye do not harken to these my words, the "unclean" lawyers will clean thee out!
Z claims I said:
"And Silver says..."they're blood be upon us and on our children!""
I have no idea who you are quotin Z, but I didn't say that, nor do I think or speak like that. I assume you pulled that statement out of the ether. But as for your other quote
"it's obvious you aren't a Christian"
Oh Z, I just love it when you talk dirty.
I have no idea who you are quotin Z
You honestly don't?
Continuing with Walton's narrative about his/her neighborhood; if that 16 YO with the new job were to fool around with her boss, all the children from all 40 families should be taken hostage and the entire neighborhood investigated for a couple months.
I'm betting Walton did not mean to open the door to say it that way, might have consumed a bit too much holiday spirit, but the message conveyed in that comment is that...
....Walton's neighborhood is what we should use in comparison to the number of families living in multi-unit buildings at the ranch, and
...informing us that Texas should "have taken all the Children" identifies such as a policy which should be followed, so
...one must conclude it is best that every family in that neighborhood are given the opportunity to prove their innocence once all their children have been subjected to SANE exams.
Merry Christmas Walton!
And harken I say unto you, 'tis Christmas Eve and angry voices, and voices of loathing, maligning, and fear should be put to rest.
Joy should be amongst you. Tidings of joy and good cheer. Goodwill unto one another.
A son is to be born in your midst. Do not let him suffer the trauma so many other sons and daughters have, that he may someday take your suffering from you....
And you can love and treat each other as you would love and treat your own.....
Silent night, holy night......all is calm....all is bright.......
'rond yon manger, Mother and Child.............sleep in heavenly peace....sleep in heavenly peace.........
Walton, the high courts of Texas disagree with you...
When will you begin to understand that families are autonomic legal units in this country for civil cases and criminal cases. CPS, as much it as pleads and cries, could not and cannot treat the entire YFZ community as one household.
And to sweep them all up because of what they allegedly "knew" or didn't know about alleged underage marriages, sounds a lot like prosecuting people for thought crimes.
Face it, CPS was too lazy to do their home work, so they took a big Texas shortcut and corralled them all in, the entire community of hundreds of people, indiscrminately like cattle; and it didn't work out so well.
As the ACLU said, the CPS workers didn't have individualized probable cause to do what they did, and so their actions were unconstitutional.
No Lucille. I said exactly what I meant. I didn't say what Z is imputing to me. If you have something to add to the matter then do so.
rericson,
Your Billie Joel link was fun.
Do you think the FLDS celebrate Xmas?
Laurie...A couple of people told me they used to...
I think they celebrate the birth of Jesus on some other day....I know they have a different calandar for events...based more on reality than whatever individual's delusions our calandar is based on...so I guess, yes and no to your question...they celebrate the birth of Jesus but not on Dec. 25th....
I just have always liked the season and the traditions...and if it is in honor of someone, whether you believe he was God or not, was a pretty wonderful individual, well, that's okay with me....
I guess I just think it's a couple of days worth putting aside the fighting and acrimony....
This 'puter is in the dining room, where I'm attempting to get wrapping done...so I keep checking the posts...stupid me....I'm a junkie....but it's so depressing.....
With my job and my dog, I am so far behind and working against the odds to garner a bit of Christmas spirit....
Maybe it's one year it's worth breaking out the rum and eggnog before noon.....
Regina,
If it makes the season any better for you, Anne Heiligenstein & the State of Texas wrapped & delivered a nice Christmas gift for all at the ranch in that report.
Just imagine being a juror in a civil complaint from this raid and reading how 8 months later the CPS is fabricating a narrative report trying to justify their conduct in a percentage of the suits, as if it is some sort of free pass for all the others even this report admits were not victims of any abuse, neglect...
How embarrassing is that?
z,
"heh, it's obvious you aren't a Christian...or else you'd see the parallels (to persecution of Christians throughout history) as plain as day..."
What I see is Ruby attempting to draw an analogy linking the godliness of men who have made a lifestyle of marrying women before they are considered women to a man who willingly sacrificed his life so that all might be redeemed from sin. He didn't whine and complain about it either, but rather forgave all. It's a very, very poor analogy. I have yet to see a single example from the FLDS males that I would compare to Jesus favorably. Then again, Jesus did not marry and so had no need to institute the marriage practices that Joseph Smith did nor to carry them on as the FLDS leadership have.
K-
The potential for civil litigation, and what can be accomplished with the outcome of the same, is the only saving grace in this whole mess...I think about it regularly...and smile....
Merry, merry!!!!!
Rebeckah:
"What I see is Ruby attempting to draw an analogy linking the godliness of men who have made a lifestyle of marrying women before they are considered women to a man who willingly sacrificed his life so that all might be redeemed from sin. He didn't whine and complain about it either, but rather forgave all. It's a very, very poor analogy. I have yet to see a single example from the FLDS males that I would compare to Jesus favorably. Then again, Jesus did not marry and so had no need to institute the marriage practices that Joseph Smith did nor to carry them on as the FLDS leadership have."
We would not want this one deleted!
This post has been removed by the author.
rebekah, you forget, the major bone the jews had with Jesus Christ is that he drank and dined, and hung out with (underage?) prostitutes.
Same mud slinging here...
Brooke, I can not believe you are actually making excuses for these abuses! My god woman do you have no conscience left?
Bing Crosby's Christmas Album is the best!
Mormon Tabernacle Choir one is pretty dran good, too....
And I have an old one by Perry Como.....
And Nat King Cole....
Oh my.....Christmas Music is just the cat's pyjamas.....
Cheese cake is almost done...then in go the pie shells....
Got the lasagna for tonight ready to go.....
second eggnog should do the trick.....
It wouldn't have mattered what the CPS report said, or who wrote it, or how it all evolved. The fact is, many people here don't really give a crap about constitutional rights of children at all!
They have their own agenda to be able to live and break laws, any laws they see fit, if they want to.
This still once again all reverts back to Utah and Arizona, and the ignoring of what was happening to children within the Flds for year. Of course its much easier to turn a blind eye, or just pretend it isn't happening than make waves.
Merrianne Jeffs isn't 16 headmistress, she's 14. And yes it is worth every effort , what ever money it takes for children to live rich full lives without fear or guilt of abuse. Whether it's one or it was 12, YES, it was worth it!!
Remember , we are only talking about Texas here with these particular marriages. Warren Jeffs was running around to all the other safe houses during the time in was running from the law. So we really don't know how many other underage girls were married off now, do we?
As far as Im concerned none of this had anything to do with religion or beliefs. It had to do with common decency of trying to stop people who felt above the laws everyone else follows to commit adultry and incest, and breeding with underagae children.
ztg
The major problem the jews had with Christ was that he was who he said he was! And they didn't want him taking control of the jews or the world.
Christ beleived everyone was worth saving, including children.
harley, the mind reader...once again, must I reiterate that this was and is about the beliefs of the FLDS, namely the belief, as eloquently stated by Ms. Voss at the 14 day hearing, that a woman's sole purpose in life is to procreate and provide earthly vessels for the spirits.
I know it's hard for you to fathom a religion so intense that it dictates one's whole purpose in life, but it is what it is. And we either have religious freedom or we don't.
Merrianne Jeffs isn't 16 headmistress, she's 14.
Why do you think she was referring to Merrianne when she never said whom she was referring to? And how does that change her point?
The fact is, many people here don't really give a crap about constitutional rights of children at all!
What are the "constitutional rights of children" other than the right to life?
Whether it's one or it was 12, YES, it was worth it!!
Scary.
As far as Im concerned none of this had anything to do with religion or beliefs.
Despite the fact that CPS representatives said that was the case?
So we really don't know how many other underage girls were married off now, do we?
If the Bishop's list is an accurate record, we know how many were married at YFZ. If it isn't, then a good chunk of the state's case (though not all) is down the drain.
I partly agree harley. But they were more afraid the son of man was here to dissolve their ossified religious institutions and archaic tedious legal system with a new simple law, namely "Thou shalt love the lord thy God with all they heart and soul and mind. And the second..., thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two laws hang all the laws and the prophets."
harley,
My great grandmother was married at 14, had 8 children, was married some 60 years, happily. Are you saying my greatgrandfather was a child molester and should have been locked up? People were married young back then.
The only difference is a couple of generations of time. With Heavenly Father, there is no time.
If it makes the season any better for you, Anne Heiligenstein & the State of Texas wrapped & delivered a nice Christmas gift for all at the ranch in that report.
--------
That is exactly the way I see it!
Harley is a troll. He is Marrie reincarnated. Why are you feeding the troll on Christmas Eve?????
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial, inflammatory, irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of provoking other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
I think you are confused Rericosn. You may not like his perspective, but he clearly doesn’t fit the definition of a “troll.”
P-
"Troll" fits him perfectly. He is deliberately inflamatory. Often crude, and usually rude.
You come on and discuss things....hell, you and I are polarized in our perspectives, more often than not...but we discuss...we argue....we present our perspectives and why they are what they are...
Harley is quite different...he is a troll....and it is Christmas Eve....and I just get sick of the deliberate hurtfullness of how some things are said...and it seems to me that today is a good day for a hiatus from the meaness....
But whatever...I'm going to decorate my tree and not think about Harley and his meaness...
I hope you're having a wonderful day!
Merry, merry!!!!!!!!
You may be right in some regard, but I get so tired of everyone walking on eggshells because the topic is about “faith.” Sometimes you have to just call bullshit, bullshit. The FLDS are so used to speaking in euphemistic terms, sometimes a little crudeness is necessary to make sure we all know exactly what we are talking about.
Take the term “child brides” for example. They are certainly children, but what we are actually talking about is the systematic religious promotion of the rape of a child. I know some people on this board will want to have some kind of debate over what the appropriate age is and how just because I draw my line in the sand at eighteen it doesn’t make it more “right” than their line at 14 or wherever, but if we are going to have that conversation. Let’s be honest about what we are saying. I often disagree with Harley, but at least with him I never wonder what he is really saying because he puts his real beliefs out there and doesn’t try to sugar coat/euphemize he opinions.
That being said, Merry Christmas and I hope we can all enjoy the season and use it as an excuse to be Christ-like and not just Christian.
Merry Christmas to you as well kbp and thank you.
The 16 year old getting pregnant by her boss?
They wouldn't need to "raid" the whole neighborhood as her parents would have called the officials.
The LE in this area would act accordingly and the pervert would be behind bars.
I used my neighborhood as an example. This is what I am aware of in the 40 different homes. And we don't share a kitchen.
LE or CPS wouldn't have to bust down the doors of 40 homes to find that child. The homes are registered to each property owner.
If those 40 families lived in an apartment building, again they wouldn't have to bust down any doors. The apartments are clearly marked of the residents that live there.
ztgstmv
I think that the high courts in Texas was wrong in sending those kids back as early as they did.
I think the LE and the CPS acted accordingly to what they knew and saw when they were allowed access to the property. jmo
Walton said...
“I think that the high courts in Texas was wrong in sending those kids back as early as they did.”
I don’t think so. The state should not pay for the care of that many children over the long term. I think they are doing a good job given all the factors. Have the parents care for their own children, just ensure that they are not being abused. As long as there is some kind of outside scrutiny I doubt Willie and his band of Merry thugs will be to anxious to get them pregnant and the fact that the raid happened sends a strong signal to the children that underage marriage is not ok and they have other options.
TOTAL BULLS*** ??
"“People may have lost sight of the fact that the reason we went to the ranch was to do this investigation,” CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said. “CPS did what it was required to do under state law.”
“For the Department of Family and Protective Services, the Yearning for Zion case is about sexual abuse of girls and children who were taught that underage marriages are a way of life,” the report states. “It is about parents who condoned illegal underage marriages and adults who failed to protect young girls — it has never been about religion.”"
OH MY!
"investigation... kidS ...childREN..."
Looks plural to me!
Many of us have been saying it, some of the press has been reporting it, all realized it, and now even the spokesperson for the CPS is telling us...
...it NEVER
...had anything to do with
...SAVING SARAH !!
***
*****
**********
*****
***
and Walton,
You are the one that opened the door for the state to require ALL within your neighborhood to have their children taken.
It should not take more than a couple months for all of them to prove their innocence, maybe sooner knowing those wonderful, obedient Americans will all fully cooperate.
Expect the report on your neighborhood in about 8 months!
Walton, it's irrelevant whether the Texas Supreme Court would have allowed the state to retain custody of the YFZ children for as long as a year or more, as the state intended. The FLDS were already preparing to appeal to the Federal courts and even the international courts if need be, as the situation clearly met the statutory definition of genocide (look it up on wikipedia).
Your emotions and those of Angie Voss aside, what the state did was illegal. Every parent has the right at this time to sue the state for taking their kids in their individual cases and interrogating them, testing them, and kidnapping them under color of law without bothering to articulate any individualized probable cause to justify the actions to the court.
READ THE CONSTITUTION.
Yeah Ron, you know the plygs know Constitutional law better than any judge in Texas, CPS, LE, or any lawyer...
Wake up, dude!
HAPPY HOLIDAYS =)
Now ztgstmv is a "plig" too? Laurie has a fascinating outlook on the world.
Laurie:
"...know Constitutional law better than any judge in Texas, CPS, LE, or any lawyer..." [working for CPS I guess].
You just listed a group that was bitch slapped for violating rights. Count how many no longer work there.
Was there another message I missed in your comment?
kbp,
Yeah, yeah, yeah...Well, I don't buy the "Oh I'm not a polygamist" line everybody spouts around here.
If ya think like a duck, ya react like a duck, ya quack like a duck - yep, yer a duck all right.
HAPPY HOLIDAYS !!!
(you guys goof up all the time and say "we" "us" and so on...it's obvious)
K,
"We would not want this one deleted!"
No worries, I'm not in the habit of deleting my posts. I did it once, very quickly after I posted it, because I was extremely obnoxious and regretted the post. If I'm wrong I'll admit it, rather than deleting the post.
z,
Okay, I did just what you suggested:
"United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide (CPPCG). Article 2, of this convention defines genocide as "any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group, as such: killing members of the group;"
Who died, again?
"causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group;"
Once again, who does this affect. I don't think that the state can or should be held responsible for a person's choice to feel persecuted when they reap the consequences of breaking the law.
"deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life, calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part;"
Yeah, the FLDS are going to disintegrate any moment now...
"imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group;"
No, only births to young girls.
"[and] forcibly transferring children of the group to another group."
Which is why the children are back home now. Our government is determinded to commit "genocide".
It's a stretch, z, a really, really, REALLY long stretch.
z,
"
Your emotions and those of Angie Voss aside, what the state did was illegal. Every parent has the right at this time to sue the state for taking their kids in their individual cases and interrogating them, testing them, and kidnapping them under color of law without bothering to articulate any individualized probable cause to justify the actions to the court."
This I can't argue with. I think they should and that individuals within CPS should be held accountable for any actions they took contrary to the wellbeing of the children. That would include scaring them with statements of never seeing their siblings again and vaccinating them without their medical records and permission from parents. It still isn't genocide, though...
Regina,
"I just get sick of the deliberate hurtfullness of how some things are said..."
Given the deliberate hurtfulness of many things you've said I'd think you'd look to your own meanness before criticizing others. But you have excuses for your own meanness, don't you?
Rebeckah,
I've stayed off this for several hours because I find it distressing. I was not speaking to you, or about you, however, as usual, you have this inordinate need to personalize everything. Well, fine, you want to personalize it? You want to look for demons where none are? You're darn right, I can be nasty as nails. I try very hard not to. But you rag on me incessantly...so you know what?
You can stick it whereever you see fit....
And I'm not one to use the "eff bomb" on line, often, but consider yourself to have been told to go eff off!!!!
Rebekah, ok, *attempted* genocide. Just be thankful the Texas Supreme Court stepped in before the issue was presented in the Hague.
Oh, and by the way, that has nothing to do with your positions on anything. That was personal. It was me telling you to eff off because you are just a miserable human being...you whine and cry and make excuses. You write personally to FLDS and want their friendship and you come on here and talk all kinds of crap...you're a phony piece of hypocritical crap. You're lower than the stupid ones because you have the ability to behave better and you choose not to.
And you have decided you don't like me...well, guess what? I don't care...I don't have much use for you or your country bumkin, white trash type, either...how's that for nasty?
I hope Santa pisses in your cheerios for you!
Regina,
"because you are just a miserable human being...you whine and cry and make excuses."
Pot, meet kettle.
I'm touched, Regina, really I am. It's nice to know someone as elevated and holy as you has seen fit to stand judgement on my miserable self. Peace and goodwill to you too.
Please, now take the chance to explain to everyone here how we're NOTHING alike. (Actually, that's true. I'd never go online to trash a rape victim just because a friend of mine was the rapist.)
rericson,
Look, I don't agree with everything Rebeckah says, and she comes off as meddlesome at times, but telling somebody to eff off is going overboard.
She does bring out some good points about the issues, she gives a different perspective, and she does her researxch, so I think you're being too harsh.
You told us to "be nice" for the holidays, and then you fly off the handle. Take a look in the mirror.
peace
Laurie...
You don't know the whole story...it's personal. Believe me.
And it wasn't harsh, it was restrained!
Rebeckah's b.s. with me is personal. You don't see comments like she directs at me toward kbp, duane, pharisee, txblogger, any of those of us who tend to be pro FLDS....she saves her snipes and need to correct what she sees as personality flaws, for me.....
She has made it personal....she's a hypocrite......
ya know what...in real life I would bitch slap you into next week and not look back.....and I haven't gotten 'street' on anyone in years....but you are just a piece of crap....if it wasn't the respect I have for the others involved, I'd hang your hypocritical laundry all over this blog.....
Okay....so I've taken several deep breaths...lol....
And I appologize for the next 36 hours....then it all counts......hehehehe
ztgstmv said: "must I reiterate that this was and is about the beliefs of the FLDS, namely the belief, as eloquently stated by Ms. Voss at the 14 day hearing, that a woman's sole purpose in life is to procreate and provide earthly vessels for the spirits.
I know it's hard for you to fathom a religion so intense that it dictates one's whole purpose in life, but it is what it is. And we either have religious freedom or we don't."
It is what it is. Define woman- Of LEGAL age. In most states it would be from 18-21.
Polygamy is against the law. They can practice polygamy all they want in their "spiritual" after life.
Having Religious Freedom is no excuse to take away the rights of Children. or don't they count?
Yeah, yeah, yeah...Well, I don't buy the "Oh I'm not a polygamist" line everybody spouts around here.
Which makes you either a liar or just plain insane. Maybe the latter, because sometimes you do seem awfully convinced of the truth of your falsehoods.
Laurie,
"You told us to "be nice" for the holidays, and then you fly off the handle. Take a look in the mirror."
Laurie, my conscience is nagging me so I have to confess. Yes, I'm being obnoxious towards Regina. She's a bully and I really hate that -- it brings out the worst in me. So I have to admit to being provoking, and on purpose. I would apologize, but that would be hypocritical of me because I'm not terribly sorry -- except for the part where I'm dragging everyone else into it because it's on a public forum.
As for the personal bit, Regina, you started it. Too bad you finally picked on someone who picks back. The sad part of this is, if you'd bothered to treat me with half of the respect you do the FLDS, you could have actually prompted me to try and moderate my "tone" online. However, you decided on namecalling and an attempt at public humiliation, which makes you a cyber bully and lower than white trash in my book. Your opinion stopped mattering to me right after your manifest hypocrisy became clear.
In the interest of "peace on earth" and in basic decency to the rest of you, though, I'll back off -- at least for Christmas.
Grow the eff up!
I don't give a shit about you, or what you do or say to me. Yes, you piss me off, from time to time...but it is your abject hypocrisy.
I made the mistake of feeling sorry for you and helped connect you with someone to possibly help with your grandson...
big mistake on my part.
You come on these blogs with all your crap about protecting the children...prosecute the offenders...blah, blah, blah...
And then you write privately about wanting friends and all sorts of happy horse manure....
You need to be a friend in order to have friendship extended to you....
You want to sit on the friggin' fence and have both...the ability to be hyper critical and still play friends...
And that just doesn't work....that's hypocritical....
And you don't like it that I may be a lot of things, but I am not a hypocrite. And I have a life. And I have friends. And I have a career...and I don't give a shit about the likes of you.....
I am no more a bully than anyone else on these blogs with half a brain...so grow up...stop being such a whiner...no one cares!
Put your inflated ego back in the Cracker Jacks box...no one died and made you the great defender of the underdog...you're the only friggin' underdog around these parts, and that's because you've self-declared it so....
Rebeckah,
Few people here are in the know. Most are guessing and fishing.
Keep up the good work, and Merry Christmas!
Regina,
LOL!
Merry Christmas.
I said I'll back off and I will.
Ta!
Regina said:
"Rebeckah's b.s. with me is personal. You don't see comments like she directs at me toward kbp, duane, pharisee, txblogger,"
That is because those 4 people are cuckoo. I don't waste my time talking to them either.
"That being said, Merry Christmas and I hope we can all enjoy the season and use it as an excuse to be Christ-like and not just Christian". Poena Abstergo
---------
(Luke 6:27-28, 32-36)
43“You have heard that it was said, ‘You must love your neighbor’[x] and hate your enemy. 44But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, 45so that you will become children of your Father in heaven, because he makes his sun rise on both evil and good people, and he lets rain fall on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you have? Even the tax collectors do the same, don't they? 47And if you greet only your relatives, that’s no great thing you’re doing, is it? Even the gentiles[y] do the same, don't they? 48So be perfect,[z] as your heavenly Father is perfect.”[aa]547
http://isv.scripturetext.com/matthew/5.htm
And there was peace on Earth....
Probably because neither Regina nor Rebeckah have posted in about 12 hours.....
I'm trying to be good, Ron, I promise. Santa was nice to me this year. ;)
An observation.
The report bases the entire evidence string not on pregnant girls seen at YFZ that day, or "children with children" seen there. The report starts with an interview of a girl or girls. Brooke notes there was only one.
It would appear they are now basing the whole chain of evidence on talking to young members of the sect. They're going to say "she said so and so."
tsk tsk tskkkk
For what I see, nobody here has been nice, guess Santa didnt visit you this year!!!!
good if some of you made a "New year resolution" to start respecting others and giving an opinion without insulting them.
I mean, you call yourself christians? Well guess Christ is not happy with what some of you are doing............... I am not a catholic but judging others the way some of you do........ then the first innocent person come here and throw a stone............................
The fact is, many people here don't really give a crap about constitutional rights of children at all!
Least of all CPS. They have no problem ripping kids from their parents and presuming the parent is guilty until proven innocent. Given kids in CPSs care are four times more likely to be injured or killed, they should have rights that keep them OUT OF CPSs "CARE", except in the most heinous situations and there's no family member to take the child.
If you believe for a second those kids were better off in CPSs care, you are grossly ill informed.
Harley is a troll. He is Marrie reincarnated. Why are you feeding the troll on Christmas Eve?????-R
My thoughts exactly. Gender shifting.
Walton,
If a 16 year old in your neighborhood called a hotline and told them she was married with child and being abused, CPS wouldn't even be involved. The call would go to LE, because CPS has no jurisdiction over MARRIED minors.
And that's what should've happened in this situation, except, CPS/LE didn't/ doesn't consider her marriage legitimate, only to the extent it could bring criminal charges.
Further, CPS is not suppose to investigate abuse that isn't committed by a person who is not responsible for the child's care, custody, or welfare- parent, guardian.
That's also a case for LE.
All that aside, CPS is also not suppose to investigate an abuse call if they do not have enough information to identify where the child is located.
The ranch is a village (CPS now says settlement instead of "compound"), a neighborhood, just like yours. They had no idea if Sarah existed, and certainly no idea which house she was in. No one bothered to ask, after 50+ hours of phone conversation with her. IMAGINE THAT !!!!
So they treated the whole village as ONE RESIDENCE.
The exact wording on closing a report with inadequate information:
The supervisor may close reports of abuse or neglect without assigning them for investigation for the following reasons: [Note: Updated April 2008]
-The report does not give enough information to locate the child or the child's family or household.
Before closing the report, staff must search local records, SAVERR (the State’s Medicaid eligibility system), IMPACT (automated case management system) records, and the telephone directory to explore all possible resources to locate the necessary information.
Like, calling Barlow's probation officer would've been a good start.
Checking local hospitals who may have treated her for the beatings she alleged sent her to the hospital.
Relying on the interviews and records taken from the sect's compound, Voss told the court that more than 20 of the girls either conceived or gave birth before they were 16 or 17.
Angie Voss, "We continue to find more information that makes us feel even more strongly about the cause and the initial call and the initial reasons [PLURAL] that we went onto the ranch and we are still in here fighting."
~~~~~
Remember this article?
When Texas child welfare authorities released statistics showing nearly 60 percent of the teen girls taken from a polygamist sect's ranch were pregnant or had children, they seemed to prove what was alleged all along: The sect commonly pushed girls into marriage and sex.
But in the past week, the state has twice been forced to admit "girls" who gave birth while in state custody are actually adults. One was 22 and claims she showed state officials a Utah birth certificate shortly after she and more than 400 minors were seized from the west Texas ranch in an April raid.
The state has in custody two dozen other young mothers and others whose ages are in dispute. If most of them also turn out to be adults, it would be a severe blow to the state's claim of WIDESPREAD sexual abuse.
If it turns out the other 24 disputed minors are adults, the number of actual 14- to 17-year-old girls with children could drop to as low as five or six. That would amount to about one-fifth of the girls that age found at the ranch -- substantially higher than the average rate of teen pregnancies in Texas but a far cry from 60 percent.
~~~~
For those who just can't let go of the 12-14 year olds getting bedded by old men, please go to the Bishops Records and notice how many of the marriages are monogomous and to couple close to the same age, in their 20s. The majority!!
For now.... on the 12 Sexually Abused Girls
Ages are as of March 2007
THE 7 WHO HAD A CHILD
1) Rebecca Keate Dutson 16
H- Keith William Dutson 22
C- Yes, Indicted. No child listed in BR
2) Ruleen J Emack 19
H-Michael G Emack 56
C- Yes, Indicted. Child 1.5 yr old in BR
3) Suzanne Jessop Jeffs 16
H- Abram Harker Jeffs 35
C- Yes, Indicted. Children from 1 mo - 7 yr in BR
4) Rachel Keate Allred 16
H- Lehi Barlow Jeffs (aka LB Allred) 28
C- Yes, Indicted. Children from 2 - 4 yrs in BR
5) Merilyn Barlow Keate 17
H- Allan E Keate 54
C- Yes, Indicted. Children from 3 mo - 13 yrs in BR
6) Elizabeth Laverne Jessop 16
H- Leroy Johnson Steed 59
C- Yes, Indicted. Child 8 mo in BR
7) Pamela Neilson Jessop 17
H- Jackson Merril Jessop 21
C- Yes, Indicted. Child 8 mo in BR
THE FIVE "MARRIED" WITHOUT CHILD
1) Marrianne Jessop 12
H-Warren Steed Jeffs 54
C- None. Indicted for Sexual Assault
2) Unknown Female
H- Warren Steed Jeffs 54
C- None. Indicted for Aggravated SA
3) Teresa Jeffs 15
H- Raymond Merril Jessop 36?
C- None. Indicted for SA
Number 4 and 5 are a guess. Three possibilites taken from the BR
Sarah Cathleen Jessop Neilson 16
H- Luke Seth Neilson 19
C- None. No Child in BR
Priscilla Zitting Jessop 19
H- David W Jessop 31
C- Unknown. Internet report claims a child. BR indicate children 2 - 9 yrs
Natalia (sp?) Jessop 17
H- Keith Dutson 46
C- Unknown. Children ages 1 yr - 19
One Million+ Dollars per Indictment. Severe trauma and maltreatment of 450 kids. Was it worth it.
Getting closer to the answer to How many Indictments, had Hildebran not changed the law?
Random Quotes:
"262 other children were subjected to neglect because parents failed to remove their child from a situation in which the child would be exposed to sexual abuse committed against another child within their families or households."
With inadequate facts to support WIDESPREAD abuse, they had to resort to this BS.
"The claims they are making in this report, bottom line: They just didn't have the authority to do what they did," said Cynthia Martinez of Texas RioGrande Legal Aid, which took the case to court.
Martinez noted that all of the mothers they represented had their cases dropped and called the report another effort to justify the removal of the children.
~~
The National Coalition for Child Protection Reform called the report "self-justifying claptrap."
"In effect, Texas CPS has admitted to engaging in child abuse on a massive scale," executive director Richard Wexler said. "And there is no acknowledgement at all of the misleading statements CPS made throughout the children's ordeal."
"The report says that 12 children were abused by FLDS. In contrast, more than 400 children were abused by Texas CPS," said Richard Wexler, executive director of the Virginia-based National Coalition for Child Protection Reform. "The act of tearing these children from everyone they know and love was abusive in itself."
~~
CPS' actions in the YFZ raid are expected to be closely scrutinized in the upcoming session of the Texas Legislature. The Texas Health and Human Services Commission said it requested a comprehensive report on the investigation's results and all of the work that went into the case.
"I think CPS did that," commission spokeswoman Stephanie Goodman said
Tuesday.
Ms. Goodman, the Health and Human Services Commission spokeswoman, said Mr. Hawkins believes the mass removal was necessary. [LOL]
“There was so much confusion, there was really no other way to get any answers – to even sort out what age the kids were, who they were,” she said.
Letters need to be sent to HHSC and individual senators.
Members- Sen. Robert Nichols, Sen. Kyle Janek, Sen. Royce West, Sen. Bob Deuell, Sen. Jane Nelson, Sen. Judith Zaffirini, Sen. Eliot Shapleigh and Sen. Carlos Uresti.
A good one to start with is Nelson in Flower Mound. She gave Cockerell a good public spanking just before he announced retirement.
Also, CPS spokesman Patrick Crimmins said one child was neglected in state custody, though under a parent's supervision.
He declined to elaborate. According to the report, the parent put the child “in a situation in which there was a substantial risk of immediate harm.”
Get out. What of those injured, lost, sent to the hospital for neglect while in CPSs care? Don't warrant mention? A broken arm, no less. LOL
The report, sent by state Family and Protective Services Commissioner Anne Heiligenstein to social services czar Albert Hawkins, defended CPS’ actions.
Anne. Dear Anne wasn't there. Her name may be on the report, but she can't vouch for a thing in the report. The responsible dog shirked off with his tail between his legs. Who put that whitewash together?
TXBlogger
I've read your posts with much interest. I have a few questions but I want to go check on a few things and I will be back.
TXBlogger
One of the really confusing things about all of this has been the conflicting reports concerning the phone calls.
When Texas went in they went looking for "Sarah". Three phone calls asking for help.
CPS needed to be involved because in one of those phone calls she mentions an infant daughter. CPS needed to be involved because "Sarah" was 16. 16 with an infant daughter.
The 50 hours of phone calls came about when Flora told everyone about the phone calls she received. This was AFTER the raid.
http://www.religionnewsblog.com/21111/flds-48
The YFZ Ranch can be called a hunting lodge, a compound or a Villiage. It doesn't change a thing.
All locked behind a wall of fence with a guard tower.
One family unit or one unit with many families living as one.
TXBlogger you brought up a couple of good points in your posts. It took me a little bit to find any links concerning just the original phone calls. But your posts made me think.
G'morning, folks...
One of the things I find most 'confusing' is the five day lapse between the urgent, imminent danger report, and the raid. Now buying into what Ron says, they were being cautious in order to avoid another Waco, or some such incident, okay, but are you going to tell me the entire force of the Texas Rangers, the entire staff of CPS, and everyone working for the governor's office, was so engaged in preparations for this 'initial investigation', that there wasn't a single person who could let their fingers do the walking and check on the source of the calls, or the whereabouts of the accused husband/abuser?
There wasn't a single person in Doran's group, or Doran himself, that could have created a resaon to go out to the ranch for a 'look-see' and asked a few questions about housing, etc.?
Doran, et al, went out to the ranch regularly enough for their other investigations....into building codes, water treatment codes, etc.
Doran claimed to have a decent speaking relationship with some of the men.....
And they had been out there often enough to know it wasn't an armed fortress...they knew exactly what the gatehouse consisted of....
Then someone asserted that it isn't comparable to going into an apartment house because with an apartment house, each tenet would be known....well, I don't know about the whole world, and apartment bldgs...but I know the ones I've been in, or lived near, and the super may have a list of the leasees, but that's usually about as accurate as the weather predictions....
So say it was an apartment bldg in any town or city...and they went in and got the super and asked for a list of tenents...and no apartment was leased by anyone with the last name given...would CPS and LE proceed to kick in every door? To search for the caller? Would they round up every child and woman in the building and question them throughout the night? Take them into custody...confiscate their phones? Get a crooked judge to order the collection of their DNA and that of their husbands and children? Just because they lived in the same building where an alledged incident of abuse took place? And what if they saw pot paraphenalia on a few coffee tables while they were rounding folks up and searching closets for the 'victim', would tey then come back and confiscate anything they felt like to see what other "crimes" they could find evidence of?
And while they're at it, let's subject all these children to medical services, some of them invasive, just in case....just in case of what? well we'll wing that later on....
Walton-
Even if it was only one phone call...five days!
They could have traced back the call from the recieving number...they could have known it didn't originate in Texas....
Had they gone in within hours of getting the report...CPS and LE....a great deal could have been explained...exigent circumstances, etc.
But five days????????
Preparations for housing multiple children, made in advance????
This was the excuse they had been waiting for...and there was no way they were going to let anything so bothersome as the constitution or their own regulations get in their way.....
I certainly hope a parallel "white paper" is being prepared by the attys for the children, parents, and accused, chroinicleing events from their perspectives, to be submitted to the same folks this "report" is going to.....
okay....so some days are worse than others when it comes to creative spelling...
CHRONICLING......sorry....
Frankly, the raid is still based on Rozita Swinton's call according to this report, and an interview or interviews of minor girls then forms the basis for the raid continuing, where documents are discovered.
The second cause (for the first of "Sarah" will eventually fail) is going to be what was said to them by "Girls," not what was seen at the ranch.
Then the idea of pervasive widespread abuse (also not shown by their report) and "one household" justifies the invasion of every home and the acquiring of personal records to give backbone to the evidence given of a young girl or girls in interviews.
If anyone else reads it any other way, I'd like to see how they read it. I've plowed through it once. It's dull, it's repetitive, it's self congratulatory, there's even a section devoted to clapping each other on the back for "teamwork." It's a typical government document. What I've outlined above seems to be the gist of the report.
Pharisee-
I tend to agree with your 'boil down'...
Even if the entirety of the Texas beauracracy was/is as stupid and naive as some would want us to believe, and going in truly was in good faith with all the prep simply to avoid a violent escalation....given all that to be true....
The abject ignornance of civil rights and regulatory protections once 'inside', should be enough to invalidate just about everything.....
Regina
Remember Rozita made her fake calls to a domestic violence shelter.
It was the shelter who made the report to CPS.
I don't understand why you would discount the Branch Davidian parallels. All the anti-government folks make big deals about how they had some sort of armored personnel vehicle out there. Why do you think that was? They were afraid the investigation would turn into some type of armed standoff.
You simply don't get all those governmental agencies working together without taking a fair amount of time.
Government was viewing this as sort of a hostage rescue situation. You don't plan a hostage rescue by first investigating the hostage.
Thanks rericson,
This leaves us with three issues then, because I actually support the notion that the police can make mistakes, but then develop new cause for continuing an action.
The three are:
Did the girl(s) interview(s) provide enough evidence to do what comes next which is break into everything? At this point I am a bit ignorant, I don't know the time line when it comes to busting down doors and the interviews of girls. If they were already busting down doors then the answer is no.
How will the "one residence" theory hold up and how will it affect the legitimacy of evidence?
The remote chance (nevertheless real) that the whole raid was based on a planted call. Namely that Rozita Swinton was deliberately used and/or directed towards YFZ so as to form a basis for entering the Ranch, where we knew that Texas would then find some cause, no matter how slight, to loot and pillage the ranch until they found something. What this last "conspiracy" angle would then mean Ron, is that Texas is trying to build a wall between it's hearing of abuse and Rozita. Namely that they don't have to deal with a criminal complaint (which would have been dismissed) and instead could act on rumor.
Ron,
This is off topic, but do you think there's any chance of a global settlement with the UEP? Do you think Utah & AZ AG's will turn the UEP over to Willie et al?
Laurie
I'm skeptical about settlement. The FLDS don't have a great reputation of playing well with others.
I'm certain the Utah AG will insist on a management structure that will both prevent the abuses that occurred previously and protects the interests of the non-FLDS beneficiaries.
I suspect Willie and crew won't like that too much. So, unless they can learn to hold their noses and deal with people they dislike, I remain skeptical.
Ron,
Not dismissing it....I mentioned it in my first post....
Even though everything they actually 'knew' about the FLDS pointed against that kind of thing, crap folks like Flora had been saying pointed to it....so there is a good possiblity that the "group think" hysteria kicked in....and you could be right, five days is nothing when it comes to coordinating beauracracies....
But dontcha think that in all that time, just one person could have been dispatched to check on the veracity of the call...since verification, to the extent possible, is one of Texas' regulations??????
And even absent that...once they got there....and the several hours spent at the gate...dontcha think, in light of the magnitude of the planned "investigation", someone could have gotten the AG's office on the phone to verify the whereabouts of the "perpetrator", who they spoke to on the phone????
I mean there's incompetency and there's incompetency....and then there is group hysteria...
So even if this is just one enormous series of coincidences and innocent screw-ups, based on faulty beliefs....and that is a really, really big 'if', but even if....at what point is Texas accountable for the effects of their screw ups?
At what point does some court say that the combination of screw-ups became so egregious as to invalidate everything that resulted from it....at what point does a court say that the effect of the screw-ups was so damaging, to so many, that reparation is owed?????
When does Texas begin to make things right and whole for those they harmed??????
Or do their funny clothes and strange ways make them fair game for hysterical behaviors and harm???? Is that the pervasive thinking? The fact that there were/are actions amongst the sect that offend not just the questionable laws, but the moral fiber of West Texas, render Texas' own rules and regulations and laws invalid? Texas' gets to engage in exactly the kinds of behaviors they are accusing and prosecuting the FLDS members of? Because it 'feels good'? It is moral and the FLDS are amoral or immoral????
Some get to ignore the law...to with 'the state', and others don't...the FLDS????
Hugh
To me, it's pretty simple. Rozita is a wack job. She is attention whoring and playing out her prior abuse scenarios to some kind soul at a domestic violence shelter.
The shelter gets alarmed and calls CPS. CPS determines it meets their internal standards and launch into an investigation.
The rest, as they say, is history.
I know it's not melodramatic. Everyone loves nefarious plots by evil governmental agents. They make great movies.
Then again maybe Rozita is an alien! (The outer space kind!)
Ron, Laurie....Y'all may be right, but I find the volume and content of the recent interactions between the FLDS and various govt. folks really encouraging....
I think the days of ostrich are over...
In the past the stance may have been one of no negotiating, but that seems to be past....
If nothing else, the siver lining to the Texas debacle is that it was a wake-up call to be proactive in self preservation and protection of the group's interests.....
Walton,
I am not being sarcastic very little of what you wrote is accurate.
Ron,
Rozita is more like an arsonist. If arsonists are a sub set of whack job, well, she's a whack job. That has Rozita setting a fire far away on a national stage so she can watch it on TV, as opposed to driving around in Colorado on a cell phone literally watching the police scamper about. This is actually what she did do in Colorado. Personally I think it's insulting to the genuinely crazy among us, to lump Rozita in with them.
Rozita simply remains an angle about whom opinions are useless unless investigated, and no one is investigating her so the questions are still out there.
Discounting Rozita as a tool or an actual co conspirator we're left with the reasons Texas supplies which are not history, they are still very much up for debate. You seem to take the attitude of "that's over" and "we should move on."
It is not over, particularly now. Texas has admitted in this report that they based none of their evidence collection activities on something they saw at the ranch. They base it on searching for Sarah which they are then continuing to hold forth as legitimate cause, and conducting a door to door dragnet in which they actually knock down doors, a la a secret police and then dream up causes later based on the evidence they collected.
They also base it on talking to a small number of minor girls, perhaps only one and determining that there is a pervasive pattern of abuse. On this basis they criminalize everyone as accessories because they can find abuse at YFZ after searching everyone, everything and everywhere. This utilizes the "one household" theory or the idea of a door to door bust 'em down dragnet again.
Would Texas go to a high school and hear one story of teachers "banging" students and then perform the same sort of locker to locker search rounding up everyone, surrounding them with APC's and guns and herding them off to the local football field while the looked for support of this "some teacher banging someone" theory?
We haven't seen it done yet. We've only seen this type of activity in relationship to religious groups. Waco. Tony Alamo. Ruby Ridge. The Manna Storehouse. All of them have a religious element. We haven't shut down one single public school to investigate widespread abuse.
Finally, there is the fact that they did not find a pervasive pattern of widespread abuse. 12 girls out of all girls, some of the 12 no longer being below legal age, do not constitute a pervasive pattern of abuse. It constitutes a lower than average number of abuses. Their own evidence now says their theory is bunk.
Pharisee-
Using public schools is a really bad comparison. I don't know about your particular community...but abuse of power by school officials and LE is rampant, across the country....
They do do 'dragnet' types of searches, having all students herded into the auditorium...brining in search dogs...opening lockers...
random searches of bookbags and strip searches of students.....
Searches of student cars parked on school property....students have close to zero expectation of privacy.....
There have been a few cases over the last few years limiting some activities...like there must be probable cause to search a bookbag...but just how hard do you really think it is to trump up probable cause?????
Yes rericson, but they do it for drugs, not for "widespread patterns of sexual abuse" even though far more cases of such abuse would be found on the average high school campus.
Also, from what I've read, Rozita may very well suffer from DID...Dissociative Identity Disorder...
Which would certainly validate her bonafides as a 'crazy'. And would be consistent with her genuine non-crazy accomplishments...
From where I sit, Rozita is almost an 'aside'. Irrespective of her psychiatric condition(s), or otherwise, the calls could have been verified/traced....
For the sake of argument, we could "give" everything to the idea of beaucratic innocense right up to the first entry and interviews. Finding no "Sarah", if at no time previously was there any attempt to verify the validity of the call(s), now would be the time before another single step or action is/was taken....
but did Texas authorities do that?..Noooooo....
At what juncture was the mandate to stop in their tracks so glaring that only a very, very seriously challenged individual could miss it?????
And at what juncture does it cease to matter, Texas is accountable for the actions and decisions of those person's in the public employ????
Pharisee....
I can't think of anything except religious groups, since the child-care fiasco of the eighties, that have been subjected to this kind of ignorance of civil liberties and violation of all of our rights and expectations as Americans....
Except maybe the rounding up, dragner style, folks in Iraq....and what they have done in Guantanimo.....
I don't buy the DID angle rericson. Her actions were too calculating. The Newsweek article on her concludes roughly the same thing coming up with a totally new disease that the symptoms are essentially "criminal."
Her lawyer is pushing the DID angle and the media is eating up the template. If she was really that sort of nuts, what she doing alone in her last court appearance sitting in the court, unsupervised and whistling?
Her legal representation doesn't see her as nuts. That's my point. The nutso angle is for public consumption.
It's natural for teenagers to fool around at a high school. When older men fool around with teenagers, then you're talking sickos who need to be locked up.
-------------------------------
Ron and Does 1 through 10, inclusive =)
If what I read and hear is true, that Willie isn't very bright or very honest, isn't it risky for the AGs to put him in charge of the UEP?
What qualifies Willie to run the UEP?
What authority does Willie have?
What experience does Willie have?
What education, mgt skills does Willie have?
Wouldn't it be better to appoint a panel of FLDS women to run the UEP? Woman who will look after the needs of FLDS families, especially the children?
Normal people don't behave like Rozita. That woman has a serious problem, believe it or not.
Pharisee-
Few lawyers know much of anything about major mental illnesses. Despite whatever they claim. Just like few family attys know much of anything about children's systems and best practices, despite what they think of themselves or what they claim. Those of us who are 'in the systems' are acutely aware of the abject lack of knowledge on the part of people making life alterning decisions for and about people with mental illnesses or children and their families with challenges.
That being said, and irrespective of what any magazine reporter writes, Rozita's behaviors are quite consistent with DID. And in terms of this case, that and a token witll get you on the subway...
Rozita, except for the reality of her calls, are insignificant. Even the calls where she appeared to have inside information. What was sid, to whom, and when, are of significance...not Rozita herself.
Mental Illness or malice, matters not.
Laurie...Notice that everytime Willie Jessop is present or makes a statement, he is referred to as a 'spokesperson'....I'd put my money on decisions being made by an 'inside' few and Willie Jessop is the public face. Not the decider. I would bet he doesn't go anywhere without an IPhone....
Willie Jessop is affable and likeable. He's bright enough to know when to keep quiet and when to make a phone call or send a text. He's a really good people person...politician...and this is very political.....
You can bet your sweet bippie that if negotiations get to 'who' in terms of shifting power from Wisan and his board, other names will become public along with Willie Jessop....
Just my gut feeling....
Laurie
I think one problem with the FLDS is their hierarchy. Willie is, from what I can gather, near the top of the food chain. So, if they craft some settlement with a combination of FLDS and non-FLDS trustees his name would probably be near the top of the list.
It would probably be better to have an accountant, but unless Willie gives up his power (what are the odds?) he'd probably be one of the trustees.
I agree with your premise of using FLDS women, but as Regina would say, given the culture, I don't see it happening.
Rericson,
Suffice it to say that I know attorney's are ignorant in general on the matter of mental illness, so are juries, so are the members of the press.
The classic indication that mental illness was no factor in a crime is covering up. Ill or not, if someone conceals what they did, they know it was wrong. Rozita did that, and does that.
I continue to think the key to Rozita is something she continues to fall back on in interrogations when she is confronted with the absolute proof she made phone calls, that she hasn't ever been pregnant and so on. She tears up and says "But it's her story." We need to know who the object of that pronoun is.
One theory is it's one of her "identities." Another is that "her story" relates to some real source. One of the things I've mulled about is that Rozita had access to case files of her Foster Mother. Perhaps she's retelling those stories because they work to get her "parent" to pay attention to her. I really don't know.
I do know this, crazy or not, Rozita knew what she was doing was wrong, and therefore insanity should not be a defense.
regina said the following:
Few lawyers know much of anything about major mental illnesses.
I have to cross examine "mental health professionals" all the time.
I've had a copy of DSM-IV for years and refer to it often. I probably know more about the MMPI than most mental health professionals.
I've worked the mental health commitment docket.
So, there are some lawyers who do know a lot about mental health issues, but as a general rule, I'd say your statement is correct.
Pharisee-
I betcha if you look, you could find a blog about Rozita where someone might care about what her defense should, or shouldn't be....
Ron-
there are always exceptions.
But I can't begin to recount the horror stories about families and individuals represented, or prosecuted, by those who didn't know squat!
And it directly speaks to the national average of over 40% of those person's incarcerated having a major mental illness or serious addiction, or both....
Our prisons have become the poor substitute for all of the public run mental health facilities we are so proud of having closed.....
And our children are in substitute care rather than they, and their families, getting the services in their homes and communities that could actually make a difference....
The MMPI and a token will get you on the subway....*smile*
Who has the audacity to rape and terrorize children and then give themselves a big pat on the back and job well done for it? CPS is your answer.
Ron,
Dealing with lawyers who deal with the mentally ill, I would have to say you're a bunch of dolts. There are exceptions of course.
You tend to criminalize the behavior, or use it as a blanket excuse for anything. You're rarely interested in the person that is mentally ill, which then makes the whole arena a difficult one for you.
Mental illness is intensely personal. The mentally ill are not really "crazy" and that's something few people ever really "get." You use "wack job" in a pejorative way that suggests disdain for the mentally ill so I don't think you "get it."
Let me review a few realities for you. The thought processes of the mentally ill are as sound as yours. Their problems divide into two major camps.
One, they have inappropriate feelings. These are affective disorders. They get too much input on the "feel" side and think it means something.
Two, they have thought disorders. These are not thought process disorders. It's useful to watch a movie like "A Beautiful Mind" to "get" schizophrenia. John Nash is a real person.
Seeing things that aren't there don't mean your thought processes are crazy. John Forbes Nash eventually is able to sort out his psychosis. It doesn't go away, but he can navigate it. This shows greater mental acuity than some of the sane.
You toss of "tin hats" and "wack job" in ways that show you don't get that Ron. Rozita may be smarter than you are. She might not even be a "wack job" at all, even by your terms.
Pharisee-
Your post shows your ability to use google and your real naivette' concerning the nuances of mental illnesses and the realities of living with them. And you completely discount the fact that a person with mental illness can have a dx on several axis, including 1, 2, and 3....
And you're correct in saying Ron, and all the rest of us are guilty of using terms like 'crazy', or 'wack job' in an inappropriate and stigmatizing way...and I will try to remember to use people first language more consistently....
As you wish rericson. There wasn't a google when I developed these opinions.
Hugh
You're right, calling Rozita a wack job was not fair. However, it was done to make a point. She clearly has mental health issues as there have been several news reports of putting her legal case on hold for evaluation and in patient treatment.
To an extent we're all wack jobs. Most mental health issues exists on spectrums. I see a lot of obsessive folks who aren't OCD. I see a lot of people that seem to have lots of problems with social interaction who aren't autistic.
My personal perspective is that we're all crazy to certain extents. Each of us has our share of cognitive distortions and cognitive dissonance that we live with day in and day out.
We're just a bunch of wacky folks living in a wacky world.
I beg your pardon! I am absolutely and perfectly sane!
and totally honest about my personal insights...............
Leave the mental illness diagnosis for a psychiatrist. My opinion, this mental illness defense is WAY overused. You could technically say that ever crime in America is caused by the perpetrators "mental illness". Even if Rozita was temporarily sane when she made the calls, the government and CPS still had no right to do what they did.
Ron said;
"To an extent we're all wack jobs. Most mental health issues exists on spectrums. I see a lot of obsessive folks who aren't OCD. I see a lot of people that seem to have lots of problems with social interaction who aren't autistic.
My personal perspective is that we're all crazy to certain extents. Each of us has our share of cognitive distortions and cognitive dissonance that we live with day in and day out."
Agreed, completely. Mental illnesses are largely an exaggeration of normal characteristics. All of us have a certain amount of control over the extremity of the expression of that illness. Mentally ill people are generally a group of some of the bravest souls I have ever met, particularly functioning schizophrenics.
Mental illness is quite real though, and a failure to deal with it so that one appears "normal" does not mean we are seeing a "weak" person who can't just "get through it." Mental illness is not an excuse for criminality in most cases as the non drug abusing segment of the mentally ill population is actually more, not less law abiding.
We insult the mentally ill when we let the Rozita's of the world off, whether they be mentally ill or not. Rozita knew what she was doing. I don't regard her illness, if she has any, as even mitigating.
hugh and wc
Legal insanity is a whole other ball game.
Hinkley trying to shoot Reagan really changed the landscape on definitions of legal insanity.
I actually lived in the same neighborhood as Andrea Yates when she drowned all her kids. If anyone was insane it was that woman. It took two trials and several appeals before she was finally found legally insane.
I don't think Hinkley was insane and Andrea Yates is a case in point. She thought her children were "innocent." She figured if she killed them while they were still "innocent" she'd save them from hell. If you believe her premise, is this not a rational act?
Yates is more arguably insane, acting on a false premise, rationally. She doesn't try to cover it up either.
Somebody said..."I do know this, crazy or not, Rozita knew what she was doing was wrong, and therefore insanity should not be a defense."
My guess is that Rozita thought she was doing the right thing. In her mind she was justified...she was helping FLDS women and children trapped at the ranch.
Laurie,
You're probably right...or at least one of her personalities thought she was helping...
It may also fit one of her personalities , probably the one who was actually abused and caused her to disassociate in the first place...
She may have seen one or more of the various Flora programs/specials, which led her to track down and contact her...then you have to challenged folks feeding the worst of one another....yikes!
No wonder it grew into such a horned monster.....
Mayaan,
"For what I see, nobody here has been nice, guess Santa didnt visit you this year!!!!
good if some of you made a "New year resolution" to start respecting others and giving an opinion without insulting them.
I mean, you call yourself christians? Well guess Christ is not happy with what some of you are doing............... I am not a catholic but judging others the way some of you do"
You are right. I was being horrible. I will attempt to be more "christlike" now. I'm not Catholic, though, just a non-denominational christian.
Rebeckah,
I only know a couple of "christlike" christians. Most of the "christlike" people I know are atheist.
When Texas went in they went looking for "Sarah". Three phone calls asking for help.-Walton
The number of calls to NewBridge is neither here nor there. They do vary from 3 to a dozen. What's important is that they contacted CPS on the 29th. According to Crimmins, CPS alerted LE that they were "going in" and LE (Doran) told them to hold off on the P1 call until a plan could be hatched.
The seriousness of these calls was conveyed from the family crisis center to Child Protective Services (CPS). The CPS then contacted the Schleicher County Sheriff’s Department in Eldorado, Texas, who immediately requested the assistance of the Texas Rangers for the massive operation.
The Massive operation?
The governor's office was first informed there was a problem on April 1, when CPS and Texas Rangers said they were planning to raid the polygamist ranch in two days – on a Thursday.
RAID THE RANCH, not investigate the abuse of a minor.
Apr 4-Child services was responding to a complaint but a spokesman for the Texas Department of Public Safety could not say whether the complaint was made from within or outside the ranch.
Another tidbit.
Mayor Nikolauk said he made no request for help, but by Thursday [3rd], the day authorities entered the ranch, the First Baptist Church of Eldorado and the Schleicher County Civic Center were ready to be used as makeshift shelters.
Who set that plan in motion? Why?
CPS needed to be involved because in one of those phone calls she mentions an infant daughter. CPS needed to be involved because "Sarah" was 16. 16 with an infant daughter.
I haven't seen any reports that baby "Claire" was allegedly abused. Have you?
The YFZ Ranch can be called a hunting lodge, a compound or a Villiage. It doesn't change a thing.
Yes, it does. That's why CPS chose to use "settlement" instead of "compound" in their report? It's all about the images you want readers to conjure up in their minds.
All locked behind a wall of fence with a guard tower.
Just like your comment. Was the tower to keep people in, or keep intruders out? They have a right to the latter. Clearly, no one WANTED out or all the women would've opted to go to CPSs "safe place". LOL CPS/Safe Place= oxymoron.
The 50 hours of phone calls came about when Flora told everyone about the phone calls she received. This was AFTER the raid.
No, it wasn't after the raid.
Flora has had an intimate connection with Doran and Ranger Long since 2004 with her sensational New Conferences in Eldorado.
She received calls from the 29th and recorded them at "the direction of the Texas Rangers".
April 2004
April 2005- The doomsday, mass suicide Press Conference with Krakaur
That didn't pan out, so yet another Press Conference in
April 2005
A CNN correspondent questioned the authenticity of the caller after listing to tapes. Why didn't anyone else who had a vested interest in Raiding the Ranch?
ANDERSON: It just gets weirder and weirder.
Gary, you listened to more than an hour of the calls. Did you ever think the person was an impostor?
TUCHMAN: You know, it was very emotional listening to it because she was crying and she was screeching and she was squeaking when she was talking. And we felt so terrible for her and she really sounded like a teenager who was in trouble. But I was also wondering, we were listening for an hour and 15 minutes, and this young girl supposedly was locked in the basement, her parents were in the house.
We wondered how she would have a cell phone with her, why she would be willing to talk for that long if her parents were in the house and she was fearful, so I was a little suspicious about that.
And the third thing, Anderson, that's really important is this girl told Flora that the person who did this to her was a man named Dale Barlow. So Dale Barlow was the name, was actually on the search warrant when they went into the ranch in Texas. Well, Texas authorities interviewed Dale Barlow who wasn't even in Texas, he was in Arizona, and they have not arrested him. So that was pretty suspicious, too.
TXBlogger you brought up a couple of good points in your posts. It took me a little bit to find any links concerning just the original phone calls. But your posts made me think.
There's more out there. Keep looking.
nah...there were no red flags....not a one...and then they saw all those pregnant teenagers and they just knew they were doing God's work......
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I wonder, has anyone gone into the basements at YFZ to see if a cell phone could pick up a signal there?
Check your work, TxBlogger.
Jackson Merril Jessop has not been indicted.
You're also using ages from spring 2007 rather than 2008 ages.
I came up with 12 girls currently 18 or younger who would have been 17 or younger in April 2008.
If you're only using the released bishop's list, you're missing information that is available in other released documents.
Here's one hint...your list is missing the young woman from Leroy Jessop's indictment. She is 17 at the present time, "married" and has a child.
(Previous comment deleted to correct a significant typo.)
Regarding the Insanity issue.
Is ANYONE really in their RIGHT mind when they kill someone?
I don't believe they are.
Makes their action and threat to society no less real.
Swinton's attorney, David Foley, assures us
"There's a lot more to this than the public is getting. I think people would be surprised. Stay tuned," Foley said.
Will we ever know the truth?
Speaking of People who are not in their right minds, and the harm done by their Victim/ Apostate Narratives.....
Jessop said she continues to cooperate with Texas Rangers [20 Apr] in the investigation (she declined to release tape recordings of her conversations to the Deseret News, saying it was at their request). But she did not believe that Swinton should face any charges if she is found to be "Sarah."
"I think she ought to be helped because she's very disturbed," Jessop said. "I think in a lot of ways she's a hero to 416 children who are being protected from systemic and widespread abuses within the FLDS, but she went about it in a very wrong way."
"I would like to hug her [Rozita Swinton]. She accomplished getting 416 children out of a very abusive situation. But I'd also like to slap her because she went about it the wrong way." --
Was there ANOTHER WAY, a RIGHT WAY that Swinton could've saved those kids? I can't think of one.
I imagine this is a Fraudian slip on Flora's part. Why would she like to "slap her"? At this point, Flora and most of the nation felt certain those kids were gone for good. First to foster care and then quick and easy adoptions.
"I would like to point out that the system absolutely worked in this case," insisted Phoenix-based anti-polygamy activist Flora Jessop during the April 18 edition of "On the Record." "When -- as hotlines get calls from children purporting to be abused, just as I do, it's not my responsibility and my job to decide whether those calls are legitimate."
WRONG FLORA, they are required to investigate the abuse call before calling in the national guard.
Which is to say that the system "worked," in Miss Jessop's view, because it brought about what she considered to be a desirable result -- the armed invasion of the YFZ Ranch, and the seizure of children from their parents by force -- irrespective of the truth. In fact, Jessop's statements on the record indicate that she considered THE TRUTH TO BE INCONSEQUENTIAL.
I certainly hope that this is not the ultimate outcome of this fiasco.
We can't afford for such a precedent to be set.
$14+ million to show that 7 teens had children and 5 were "married"- had been betrothed.
The masterminds behind this are not in their RIGHT MINDS!!!
They were manipulated and guided by the Fear Mongering of a handful of Apostates and their unreliable Narratives.
Check your work, TxBlogger.
You're also using ages from spring 2007 rather than 2008 ages.-BLTL
I wrote:
For now.... on the 12 Sexually Abused Girls
Ages are as of March 2007
If anything, that's MORE damning. They were a year younger in 2007.
If you're only using the released bishop's list, you're missing information that is available in other released documents.
I use the BR because that is what CPS/LE used. I have no idea if it's even authetic. Authories claim it is and used it for civil/ criminal purposes.
Here's one hint...your list is missing the young women from Leroy Jessop's indictment. She is 17 at the present time, "married" and has a child.
Based on my research LMJ is aka
Jackson Merril.
7) Pamela Neilson Jessop 17
H- Jackson Merril Jessop 21
C- Yes, Indicted. Child 8 mo in BR
If you have something to refute that, post it.
kbp I know you weren't being sarcastic. You've always been patient with me and respectful. Thanks.
But are you saying I was wrong about everything?
"Based on my research LMJ is aka
Jackson Merril.
7) Pamela Neilson Jessop 17
H- Jackson Merril Jessop 21
C- Yes, Indicted. Child 8 mo in BR
If you have something to refute that, post it."
Your research is lacking.
"Merril Leroy Jessop, 33, is charged with one count of sexual assault of a child and bigamy."
Abilene Reporter News
Attachment R to the Motion for Conservatorship in Cause No. 2833 (Sampson Merril Jessop, Merrianne Jessop, Benjamin Merril Jessop) is a 2003 Bishop's Record for Merril and Barbara Jessop.
Included in their family are sons:
Merril Leroy Jessop, born 11-1974
Merril Jackson Jessop, born 10-1985.
Full brothers, but two different people.
Certainly CPS and LE used the 2007 Bishop's Lists which were released, but those aren't the only documents from which they derived information.
TxBlogger,
Take a look at Attachments E and I in the Motion for Conservatorship which are Marriage Records for Leroy Merril Jessop and Merril Jackson Jessop.
Two different men.
There is additional information in that court filing that is related to the list of 12 girls presently 18 or younger who were married underage.
News report states:
One of Jessop's sons,
-Raymond Jessop (34), is alleged to have married Jeffs' 15yo daughter,
-Jeffs (51), married Jessop's 12-year-old daughter, and another of Jessop's sons,
-Leroy Jessop (31), married Nielsen's 15-year-old daughter.
The grand jury indicted both Jessop sons July 22 on charges of sexual abuse of a child.
This marriage is documented in the BR:
7) Pamela Neilson Jessop 17
H- Jackson Merril Jessop 21
C- Yes, Indicted. Child 8 mo in BR
Did 2 Jessop sons (Merril Leroy and Jackson Merril) marry 2 different 15 year old Neilson daughters?
If so, who is the other 15 yo Neilson daughter?
Odd that the GJ would indict 2 Jessop boys, but not the most obvious (Jackson Merril) who IS listed in the BR.
"Did 2 Jessop sons (Merril Leroy and Jackson Merril) marry 2 different 15 year old Neilson daughters?"
Yes and the two young ladies are full sisters. Additionally, the young woman who is the victim in Raymond Jessop's indictment is also a full sister.
They are stepdaughters to Wendell Nielsen. Their biological father is Leroy Jeffs, one of Warren Jeffs' older brothers.
"If so, who is the other 15 yo Neilson daughter?"
You can find the name of the girl married to Leroy Jessop at 15 in Attachment E (Marriage Record) of the Motion for Conservatorship that I linked to.
She was one of the three underage brides married on 7-27-2006 and was 15 at the time.
"Odd that the GJ would indict 2 Jessop boys, but not the most obvious (Jackson Merril) who IS listed in the BR."
Jackson Merril Jessop is only 3 years and 1.5 months older than his wife.
I don't anticipate an indictment for him as he is only 1.5 months past the three years age difference which provides an affirmative defense to a charge of sexual assault of a child.
If he is eventually indicted, the odds for an acquittal would be higher than for others.
Additionally, the first child of Jackson Merril Jessop and his wife was born in 8-2006.
Do the math; they were not married on 7-27-2006 as you assumed.
Attachment I (Marriage Record) of the Motion for Conservatorship: date of marriage is 10-3-2005.
Pharisee,
There are no basements at the ranch because the limestone bedrock lies just below ground surface.
Additionally, the first child of Jackson Merril Jessop and his wife was born in 8-2006.
Do the math; they were not married on 7-27-2006 as you assumed.
Attachment I (Marriage Record) of the Motion for Conservatorship: date of marriage is 10-3-2005.
Slow down. I didn't claim WHEN any of those marriages took place.
There's been a lot of confusion around Merril Leroy. I've seen two lists of indictments. On one he's listed as ML. On another, LM. The only Jessop married to a Neilsen in the BR records was Jackson Merril. I also read online that ML was aka as Jackson Merril. I assumed they were the same person. Apparently not, and an honest mistake.
Thanks for the link to the Motion for Conservatorship. I found what I was looking for. I'm leaving for a couple of days, I'll make that change to my doc when I return.
TxBlogger,
"Slow down. I didn't claim WHEN any of those marriages took place."
My bad. I assumed that is what you had done when you provided this:
"News report states:
One of Jessop's sons,
-Raymond Jessop (34), is alleged to have married Jeffs' 15yo daughter,
-Jeffs (51), married Jessop's 12-year-old daughter, and another of Jessop's sons,
-Leroy Jessop (31), married Nielsen's 15-year-old daughter."
"The only Jessop married to a Neilsen in the BR records was Jackson Merril."
It has been obvious for some time that the released Bishop's Lists are not the sum total of people who were living at YFZ in April 2008.
"I also read online that ML was aka as Jackson Merril."
I'll just say that what we read on the internet should be questioned and compared to data and documentation that comes from other sources.
"I assumed they were the same person. Apparently not, and an honest mistake."
It's understandably easy for there to be confusion as to who is who.
"Thanks for the link to the Motion for Conservatorship."
No problem and you're welcome.
Have a safe journey.
I hope all is well with you TxBlogger. Have a enjoyable trip.
Yeah, keeping all those guys apart is difficult. It's almost like you need to refer to anyone in the FLDS by all three names. Two just seems to be simply not enough.
Brooke
The temple does have a basement! Its 4 stories high, including the basement.
If you look at the pictures as the temple was being built, and after its finished, you can see the basement windows.
Harley
"Basement" is rather a relative term. Most structures have a main floor. Depending upon the terrain that floor is usually somewhere near ground level.
If the bedrock is only 2 to 3 feet down below the existing surface level, if you start building on the ground rock, you can't necessarily call that a basement.
I obviously haven't looked at what you've looked at. However, remember just because they dig somewhat below ground does not a basement make.
Ron
So the window being ground level wouldnt mean there was a floor underneath the main floor? Because there are windows ground level on Both sides of the Temple.
They may not call it a basement, but its below ground level.
"The Temple is in the final stages of construction. It has spiral staircases on each of the four corners. There is a basement and what appear to be three stories above the basement. It is being faced with Schleicher County native limestone."
Your more than welcome to look at the pictures yourself Ron.
http://web.sccn2.net/flds/
By the way, we had our first Fried Turkey Christmas, it was Wonderful!!
Harley, Those windows at the bottom, that they are calling a bsement are not below ground....when you think about how enormous that building is, those first level windows only appear small because the others are huge....
that whole lower level is above ground...the steps going up to the entry level are probably 10-12 feet high...look at the slope of the handicap access ramp....
Where is the relevance whether there are any basements at YFZ?
The only "locked in the basement" references I've seen were unrelated calls made to Colorado locations by Rozita Swinton and a claim by Flora Jessop that the caller who purported to be "Sarah's twin sister" said she was locked in a basement in Colorado City.
If there are any credible reports that the calls made to the shelter in San Angelo involved a "locked in the basement" scenario, I'd like to see a link to a source.
Harley
I think a basement would be any floor beneath the main floor. So, a raised main floor would mean that a basement might be at or near ground level.
I guess what I'm saying is that both you and Brooke could be right. If there is not much soil between what is undisturbed ground level and bedrock, then the very bottom level of the structure could be a basement or it could be the main floor of the structure.
Then you have weird deals like Galveston where what was the main floor on the Bishops palace is not the basement.
Like I say, basement is all relative.
Oops typo - correct that line about the Bishops palace to read, "now the basement."
I never said anyone was locked in a basement, lol
Someone mentioned basement, and Brooke said the temple has No basement, but it does.
I just figured they stored stuff in the basement, like extra chairs, furniture etc.
There was a deep hole dug when the temple was being prepared to be built. below ground. Yes, you can actually get a basement in that area of Texas, but it takes blasting the bedrock to get it deep enough. or heavy machinery.
"They felt if they did that that they'd be aiding or assisting us in the desecration of their worship place. So we had to use other means to gain entry and breach the doors," Caver said.
He said there was a basement and three stories in the temple. He said there were beds in the top floor of the building, but declined to describe any more details
http://www.deseretmorningnews.com/article/1,5143,695269191,00.html
This post has been removed by the author.
CPS are not more human that human. Discrepancies will be dealt with at court where no one wins.
As far as I am personally concerned the entire situation is barbaric.
RubyTuesday
Did someone say CPS were more human than human?
We are all human, individuals, no two alike.
We can and do make mistakes, thats why we are human.
Merrianne Jeffs isn't 16 headmistress, she's 14. And yes it is worth every effort , what ever money it takes for children to live rich full lives without fear or guilt of abuse. Whether it's one or it was 12, YES, it was worth it!!
Yes, but Merrianne Jeffs wasn't being sexually abused. She wasn't living with her 'husband,' and I have seen no evidence that she ever did. Her wedding night was spent with another adult woman and that woman's children.
And the most recent under-aged marriage CPS could find was two years ago- so CPS wasn't protecting anybody.
And your math? It's from hell. It was NOT worth it to torture, devastate, and traumatize over 200 healthy, happy, safe, children under the age of 5 in order to 'save' 12 girls who did not want to be 'saved,' and the youngest of whom were not even living with the 'husband.'
The state had the option of keeping JUST the teen girls in custody. Their own expert recommended just that approach.
The state refused, making it clear this was never about doing what was best for the children, about helping children, or protecting children. It was about power, and probably about a wholesale attempt to abduct and adopt out hundreds of children from a single community.
The state of Texas has the highest rates of teen pregnancy in the nation, and an astounding number of those teen pregnancies are perpetrated on those girls by adult men- if CPS cared about children having children, they'd start investigating the high pregnancy rates at the local high schools.
Headmistress
Merrianne Jeffs is now 14, married to warren jeffs. Let me ask you a question. Warren Jeffs will be in prison a long time , he has charges against him in arizona and now Texas.
This young lady will continue to grow and age, but she is already married. So what your bas ically telling me is this, Merrianne will live the rest of her life married to a man she will never see.
My understanding is FLDS don't do divorces legally. Now Im assuming warren could give away Merrianne to another man as his wife.
To me that in itself is abuse. Until and unless Warren Jeffs releases Merrianne from her "celestial marriage" she can't do anything else.
To be honest, the public has not seen all the evidence LE is working with. There were not 143 families on the bishops list, which tells me, they have much more than has been released to the public.
I wasn't there, you weren't there, so everything we are talking about is second guessing on evidence.
Evidence taken from Rozita Swinton in Colorado, is still under seal.
Teen preganacy is an epidemc in all states. However, most teen pregnacy is between two teens, and isn't arranged by parents.
We could quote stats all day long from every state to try and make some dramtic point.
The problem with this particular issue, the marriages are arranged by the prophet and parents , Adults! who know better, know the law and thumb their noses at it, calling it religion.
What do you suppose her thoughts were about when she went to bed that night?
Do you suppose she was thinking that I married the Prophet and I will go to Heaven.
I married a man on the Run I will never see my husband again.
My husband might come back in one month. Will I have to kiss him again? and all that other stuff?
I will have to take care of all my sister-wives many children.
Remember she is allowed only one husband. Even if Warren died... what man would marry the Prophets wives?
Now, imagine what it must be like for this CHILD at play time. What do you suppose she and the other kids are talking about at recess?
Do you suppose she talks about the latest person that won at tag? Do you suppose she tells the other kids that she is tired from taking care of her sister-wives kids? What she might be making for supper?
After 2 years of cooking and cleaning do you think she might suggest to her husband to take another wife? How about her sister Louise who now just turned 12?
Who could she complain to about all this? who could she tell that she is unhappy? Her parents? Her teacher? Her bishop?
She is in the 6th grade. Does she call someone on the outside? Does she walk past the gated tower, how many miles to the locked fence, scale the fence and walk how many miles to a town she probably has never been to and ask for help?
And you say that isn't abuse?
Say what you want about the CPS but I think they rescued this child.
Maybe you aren't hearing about all the cases they have gone after older men marrying young girls in Texas because they are able to do it on a one to one basis.
Who is sticking up for the kids at the Ranch. I hear lawyers sticking up for parents.
I don't hear any lawyers talking about the childrens rights.
Very Well Said, Walton!
From the front gate where the road is, its a mile to the housing. The ranch is 4 miles from town. Nothing surrounding the ranch but Land, brush, rattle snakes, coyotes. The town of El Dorado is very small, and "if" a girl made it to the road, Im sure she would be very afraid.
Im supposing this is the reason no girl has tried to run away even if she wanted to.
This is why most groups like this, move thier compound a great distance from anything public. It keeps people there.
I have no doubt, all the people on that ranch, knew exactly who got married. We aren't talking 8,000 people as in the twin cities. We are talking a small group of around 700 people. It was be near impossible for those people not to know when the girls got married.
Im not really even sure that Merrianne Jeffs knew exactly what she was getting into, but the prophet had spoken, and thats what they all adhere to. Sad to me!
And of course her marrying Warren was just another feather in Merrill Jessops cap!
Once again, the inaccuracies and lack of understanding abound.
Warren Jeffs, the man, doesn't "choose" anyone for anything. Warren Jeffs, the conduit for God's word reveals His word.
All through the ages there have been 'holy' people. The Prophets of the bile. Old and new testaments...Saints through the ages....Shamens and Seers....
Bhuda, and Mohammed....
The FLDS believe that their Prophet is a holy person. It is through the Prophet that God reveals His wishes. Believing that is called Faith. It is no different than Roman Catholics believing in the infallibility of the pope. Or all Christians having FAITH that Jesus Christ died that everyman can achieve the Kingdom of God......
IT IS NO DIFFERENT!
It is their FAITH. Whether you believe in it or not.
And each of us has the free agency to decide what, or which, if any FAITH or religion to ascribe to....
We do not have the agency, or anything else, to dictate what choices another makes concerning their own faith.
Every single person in that community is aware of the fact that there are other faiths. Every single person in that community knows that no one of us knows for sure exactly which faith, or what part of which faiths, will be what we find when we die. Believing one set of beliefs to be true takes a leap of FAITH. It is a conscious and personal CHOICE, which we each make for ourselves and no one else...
And since not one of us really knows which one is correct...all we can do is have FAITH, and allow each to choose for themselves...
And if I want to believe that a frog by my pond is my god and none other...it is none of anyone elses business!!!!!!!!!!!!!
If Merrianne CHOOSES to remain married for Time and All Etrnity to Warren Jeffs, that is her CHOICE, using her agency to make that choice. And it is NONE OF OUR BUSINESS!!!!!!
We don't get to make the rules or change the doctrine of other's faith!!!!!!!
Who am I to decide that an atheist is wrong and that he/she MUST believe?????
Who am I to decide that Warren Jeffs is not a holy person?????
There area whole lot of religions, FAITHS, out there that I personally think are hogwash...so what???? If I want the right, and no one can take it from me, to believe what I CHOOSE, how dare I presume that anyone else has any lesser right???????
And, by the by...I don't know about the rest of the world, or the country, or even my own state, but I do know that the majority of teen pregnancies in my county are with men at least five years senior to the young woman....
Many exceed that figure....
And, by the by....in the American Muslim community as well as the American Hindu community, the preponderance of marriages are arranged by the parents, often when those to be betrothed are infants. And betrothals between a man many years senior of the female are not uncommon.
rericson you and your Frog can croak all day long if you want. Doesn't bother me one little bit.
You and your Frog can dance around the lilly pads under the moonlight, all night long if you want.
It isn't against the law.
But do be careful which type of Frog you CHOOSE. I know many that go out Frog hunting.
Even if Merrianne was not sexually abused she was exposed to the potential for sexual abuse. This is simply poor parenting and frankly I don't see anyone having Uncle Merrill change his tune.
The name of the game is to give Merrianne options in life. She may very well like Carolyn Jessop's daughter choose to go back. However, giving HER the option rather than the FLDS telling her what her life will be is the important point.
Walton
Lots of lawyers talk about children's rights. There have been a lot of advancement in protecting the rights of children. However, parental rights are also very important. It's a fine balancing act.
Regina
Please don't lump Buddhism in with other belief systems.
Some of the Buddha's last words were:
"Be ye lamps unto yourselves, be a refuge to yourselves. Hold fast to Truth as a lamp; hold fast to the Truth as a refuge. Look not for a refuge in anyone beside yourselves. And those, who shall be a lamp unto themselves, shall betake themselves to no external refuge, but holding fast to the Truth as their lamp, and holding fast to the Truth as their refuge, they shall reach the topmost height."
Then Zen has the paradoxical command:
"If you see the Buddha on the road, kill him."
Regina said:
And, by the by...I don't know about the rest of the world, or the country, or even my own state, but I do know that the majority of teen pregnancies in my county are with men at least five years senior to the young woman....
Many exceed that figure....
If you don't know about all those other areas, then how do you know?
Source please!
Sorry Ron. I didn't mean to throw you into that lump of lawyers whom I've seen in the press. All I've heard about is the parents rights being talked about.
I hope I did not offend you.
OK Regina
North Carolina sources your statement about older men with younger women.
From a Statistical Brief:
Results
Table 1 presents the range of reported father's age for each single year of age of the mother. It is clear from this table that, in some cases, much older men
are involved in the pregnancies of unmarried teens.
Figure 1 shows the average (mean) difference between mother's age and father's age, by single years of mother's age. The average father's age ranges from 18 to 22, but the average gap between mother's and father's age is much larger at the youngest maternal ages.
Figure 2 shows, for unmarried mothers under age 18, the percentage of births where the father was age 18 or older. Even for the youngest teen mothers
(who had father's age reported on the birth certificate), half or more of the fathers were age 18 or
older.
FATHER'S AGE FOR TEENAGE LIVE BIRTHS IN NORTH
CAROLINA
by Paul A. Buescher, Ph.D.
http://web.sccn2.net/flds/images/IMG_8440.jpg
Look at this photo. If a 12 year old wanted to leave this Compound how could they?
Do you suppose the man in the tower would just let this little girl walk on by? Or anyone else for that matter?
http://web.sccn2.net/flds/images/IMG_8368.jpg
Which way is it to town? What town is close by?
Walton
Nah, you didn't offend me. It does cut both ways however. Whenever the courts terminate a parent's rights, they need to make sure they've given those parents (no matter how worthless) due process. It's especially important if your goal is to give kids a sense of permanency away from the parents.
Walton
According to Wikipedia YFZ is 4 miles northeast of El Dorado TX
Ron....sorry...was indulging in some chit chat and left over pie with a neighbor....
My 'source' for teen pregnancies in our county was a recent article in the Pocono Reporter...one of those weekly freebies you pick up in the grocery store or pizza parlor...
It was about how a home a couple of nuns openned a few years ago is closing down for lack of patronage...
Article talked about the preponderance of teens in our area that find themelves "in the way" either remain at home or move in with the father's family, and actually keep their babies...unwed mother's homes are seemingly unneeded in this area...and it went on to talk about the surprising age gap in so many of the relationships...and gave some very rough statistics for the last few years...I say rough because the author talked about how difficult getting accurate data is...
There also was a blip in there about the 'high' number of pregnancies in a particular section of the county to teens with much older fathers....by much older I mean men in their thirties....seems there was/is a rash of those old farts bedding young girls in a particular neck of the woods...literally.....
Governments have an obligation to protect all citizens and particularly their young people from harm.[13] States, in the interest of protecting public safety, have the authority to limit individual rights. The protective notion of the state, known as parens patriae, assumes that minors are unable to understand fully and consent to the consequences of certain decisions.[14] Parens patriae is possessed by the state, thereby allowing the state to protect its minors health, safety, and welfare. The state, acting in the interest of protecting the minor against her own immature decisions, may impose considerable constraints.[15] All states have codes limiting minors' rights (e.g., the age allowing a minor to obtain a driver's license, the age requirement to attend school, and the legal drinking age) and exerting parens patriae.
Constitutionally, the rights of minors are protected; however, their rights are not protected to the same degree as an adult. There are three reasons that minors do not have the same constitutional rights as an adult: the vulnerability of children, their limited decision-making capacity, and the important role parents play in making decisions for their children.[17] Various state codes limit minors' rights while trying to balance the protection of the state interest, the parent interest, and the interest of the minor. Requiring immunizations for school is an example of the use of state law to protect the welfare of the greater community and having the ability to supersede the parents' wishes if necessary. State intervention in child abuse is use of state law to protect the interest of the child
Thing is, people moan and groan about crappy parents...and how children should be taken from them....
all sorts of 'save the children' types out there...but they sure as hell aren't volunteering to take these 'saved' children...many of whom have all sorts of challenges...so they get to play in the revolving door of the foster system for a few years and then they get to play in the residential facilities for a few more years and then they age out and within a few years, or months they get pregnant or go to jail.....
Fact is, with a good continuum of services in communities and well trained case managers who can engage parents, most families can remain intact, or only have to have out of home placement for a very short time for stabilization...and can actually shift the dynamic....
Despite the horrific behaviors of some parents, there are actually very few parents who want to hurt their children. Most parents, even if they are clueless about parenting, really love their children and want what is good for them...it's all in how you engage them.....
And some parents, who will never be able to care for their children on a daily basis can have really good, healthy relationships with them if they are given the tools....
Our focus needs to be on saving, preserving, teaching, helping families...not this b.s. "save the children" mantra......
And families need to be defined by those in them...."family" comes in all sorts of shapes and sizes and there is no one 'right' definition of family....family is not necessarily dictated by biology.....
It's dictates are based on the culture of the community to which one belongs and the individual family culture.....
The whole older man younger female dynamic is interesting.
When I was in high school, we had the phrase, "15 will get you 20." Meaning that once you get to a certain age, you had to be very careful about the age of the girl you dated. We'd even scorn our friends who dated younger marginal aged girls by telling them they were dating "jailbait."
I don't know if this message stopped being transmitted among young men or if it's just a bunch of guys who think too much with the little head as opposed to the big one.
As several posters on this board pointed out, what with most registered sex offenders being only guilty of statutory rape, it sure seems stupid for these guys to be engaging in this behavior.
Regina
No one really wants to tear apart families, but whey you've got bipolar mom who won't stay on her meds (or chooses to self-medicate) what do you do?
Children only have a limited time to properly develop. I'm old enough to have seen the old system where CPS worked for years and years with parents hoping while the kids languished. The new system is perhaps too much of a knee jerk the other way, but there are families that may never "get it together."
Ron,
It is a strange dynamic....
And it's funny about the "15 will get you 20"...when I was young....forever ago...the girls said the same thing....once you were fifteen, you could look and act old enough to get a boy of twenty....lol
I hammered the age thing into my boys....and now into my grandson....but ours is a different world....
I still go back to the whole culture thing...it is tremendously significant...
Fact is, I know well about the area of our county where there are a large number of young women with much older men...and it is very much a part of their small community's sub-culture....and no amount of intervntion is going to change it....
Rericson
No parent comes with a handbook. But, Parents are responsible for thier children and children's behaviour till they reach the legal age.
Parent's become irresponsible by allowing and supporting underage marriage, regardless of reason.
Even "If" an underage girl doesn't have sex until the legal age to her husband, she is his, and her options become limited from that point on.
Im not a huge supporter of foster care system, much could be improved. Assuming it was perfect, there would still be problems.
In the outside world, parents are lacking because to often, they don't know who their children's parents are, the kids their children hang with or where they are going when they leave the house.
Yes, lots needs to be learned, and implimented in all area's of society. Two of my boys are in Boy Scouts, which I also belong. I know where my boys are on weekends, and they aren't out running the streets.
Rericson
No parent comes with a handbook. But, Parents are responsible for thier children and children's behaviour till they reach the legal age.
Parent's become irresponsible by allowing and supporting underage marriage, regardless of reason.
Even "If" an underage girl doesn't have sex until the legal age to her husband, she is his, and her options become limited from that point on.
Im not a huge supporter of foster care system, much could be improved. Assuming it was perfect, there would still be problems.
In the outside world, parents are lacking because to often, they don't know who their children's parents are, the kids their children hang with or where they are going when they leave the house.
Yes, lots needs to be learned, and implimented in all area's of society. Two of my boys are in Boy Scouts, which I also belong. I know where my boys are on weekends, and they aren't out running the streets.
Ron,
I don't know about how y'all do things in Texas...but maintaining families has been our Pa. priority for awhile, now. We have mandated availability of Family Group Decision Making in every county. We have mandated Child/Family teams in every county...we have FFT (Functional Family Therapy) and MST (multi-systemic therapy) in every county...
We have family advocates and peer partners in every county...we have both youth and families on every county's integrated children's services planning board...(we're working to integrate and break down the silos in the service system)
We have specialized programs in every county for children of parents who have mental illnesses...and we have a full continuum of in home services so if a parent is mentally ill or dually diagnosed we can put therapeutic support for the children in the home, 24/7 if necessary....
The meds used for bi=polar disorder are, for the person taking them, usually pretty awful....it often takes trying several different ones until you hit on the magic for that person...so the stabilization period can be rough...and needing lots of support...especially peer support from someone who is trained and knows how to support recovery for the mother....and lots of respite and time absorbing activities for the children...
But it can be done...and the family, with support and guidance through the cjhild/family team process can do their own planning....which means they have a stake in making it successful because they have ownership in the planning....
The Milwaukee wraparound model is a good one...it has since been scaled out to include Child Welfare as well as mental health and has maintained fidelity to the model....
My wife and I have friends who are marriied, she is bi polar, and we watched for several years how she would abuse her children. Her husband would have her committed for treatment, she would be put on medication and do extremely well, but she would decide she was "okay" and go off her meds, and it was back to beating her children one as young as 3 yrs old.
They finally separated and he now has the children. The family is completely torn, the children have all been put in therapy and the scars are so deep, Im not sure they will ever heal completley.
My wife called CPS when it got so bad, and the 3 children showed up at midnight on our doorstep, all bleeding, one where her mother had hit her with her fist, in the mouth, she has braces. The little one 3 had a chunck of hair missing in her head and it was bleeding and her son, the oldest, 12, had bite marks on his shoulder because he tried to help his sisters.
CPS took the children for 3 months, till the father could get a separate place of safety for him and his children.
The mother is living alone, but has been arrested numerous times, one for driving her car into the house the father and children live in.
When a parent's rights absolutely have to be abrogated, it is usually best to look for extended family placement...and again, with supports, that can work well...and it allows the children to maintain a relationship with their parents, even though the parents aren't capable of caring for the children/child....
Even very young children can learn that love and care don't have to be packaged together....there are several really good models for establishing non-custodial relationships between parents and children....
Permanacy planning should always include parental relationships...except, of course, when you're talking about babies...but even then, it is sometimes a good thing....
Almost any plan is a better plan than foster or residential placement....and as we more and more start embracing non-traditional ways of looking at families and packaging services we have many more options available...and the means to pay for it...the feds are granting waivers and approval for lots more because the data is beginning to come in on how much more successful this 'out-of-the-box' planning is....and cost effective, in the long run....
Harley, I am not saying there are not horror stories. I can tell you far worse ones than the one you recounted. But in yours the children are with their father...with good supports the mother can 'recover'. She may never be able to be the custodial parent. But she may be able to have a good relationship with her children. And the children are in treatment, hopefully with their father...and children are amazingly resiliant...even the worst of scars can heal and they can have wonderful lives...that might not be their story if they had been seperated, put into 'the system' for years....statistically it wouldn't be a happy ending for any of them...remaining with family, and having good supports, they have a good chance....
RubyTuesday
Did someone say CPS were more human than human?
We are all human, individuals, no two alike.
We can and do make mistakes, thats why we are human.
---------
Sometimes government officials act as though they are Gods. What they say goes.....
"and children are amazingly resiliant...even the worst of scars can heal and they can have wonderful lives...that might not be their story if they had been seperated, put into 'the system' for years....statistically it wouldn't be a happy ending for any of them...remaining with family, and having good supports, they have a good chance...."
I would say in many cases the kids stand a better chance with strangers than they do their own family members.
Where were those "good supporters" when all this was going on?
Example: A father molests his son or daughter. The son or daughter molests their children. Would putting Johnny back in the hands of Grandpa be a good thing?
Example: A mother has 5 kids but only disciplines her daughter with a broom, shoe, stick, horsewhip or anything else she can get her hands on.
Should only that child be removed or should all the children? Where do they go? Uncle Vinnie?
How about the little boy who has to carry water from the only working well in a backpack 2 miles to the house. He has bruises so deep that he has cuts from his backpack. He is home schooled. Who is going to help this guy?
Will grandpa? Will Grandma step in? Grandpa is the one who molested the little boys dad.
Across the orchard is Uncle Roy who likes to play with little girls. Should be ok right?
Keeping the child in the "family structure" is the worst thing they could do for the child. jmo
Walton provides us:
"What do you suppose
...Do you suppose
...My husband might
...What do you suppose
...Do you suppose
...do you think
...Who could
...Does she
...Maybe you
[more suppositions...]"
Harley's hypothetical conclusions from Wa;ton's suppositions:
"Very Well Said, Walton!
...The ranch is 4 miles from town.
...Im supposing this is the reason no girl has tried to run away even if she wanted to."
Walton's evidence to and more of his suppositions:
"Look at this photo. If a 12 year old wanted to leave this Compound how could they?
Do you suppose the man in the tower would just let this little girl walk on by? Or anyone else for that matter?"
Ron adds fact:
"According to Wikipedia YFZ is 4 miles northeast of El Dorado TX", so this tale must be valid!
The problem here is that the state of Texas opened the gate to any that wanted to "escape".
The total so far is ZERO.
*******************
Ron:
"...The name of the game is to give Merrianne options in life. She may very well like Carolyn Jessop's daughter choose to go back. However, giving HER the option rather than the FLDS telling her what her life will be is the important point."
So we must conclude BELIEFS are only to be allowed if a parent provides their children the opportunity to explore opposing beliefs?
kdp
133 mothers left the ranch with their children. How many have returned???
This to is truth. Not supposition.
Im sure some will return when this is all over and done, but Im not counting on ALL returning.
kbp said:"So we must conclude BELIEFS are only to be allowed if a parent provides their children the opportunity to explore opposing beliefs?"
kbp where did I state that they must change their beliefs?
Even in Animal kingdom, when supervised if a mother put her cub or newborn in danger, zoo keepers, or those caring for animals remove the baby to protect it, till its old enough to fend for itself.
Just because a female can biologically have a child, doesn't necessarily mean they will be a good mother.
So now Big Willie is blaming the raid for the fact that YFZ owes 544,000 in property taxes on the ranch.
Even though the mothers and children were represented pro bono by Texas.... Nice try willie!!!
FLDS money is being spent on lawyers representing UEPtrust, problem with that, is its 4yrs to late.
The community owes just over $544,000 in property taxes, but its "resources have been wasted and their source of livelihood cut off," the release said.
Just how were they making their monies? The Cheese factory? The molasses factory? The Dairy?
How were they getting hay to feed the cattle?
Were they selling garden products at the market?
Were they running a business?
What was the grain elevator used for? Did they have small grains? Did they have combines? Grain trucks? Swathers?
Did they buy seed and put it in the ground and were unable to harvest the wheat? How about chemicals? Did they purchase chemicals that had to be put in the ground?
Did they have beef cattle? Did they take those to the sales barn?
What livelihood?
Just curious.
Property Taxes are high in Texas. since it doesn't have state income tax, you are taxed big time on your real estate, land, and personal property.
You are taxed county, city, and school district taxes. Even if you home school, you still pay school distric tax.
The ranch is a corporation with residences, and each residence is taxed to the corporation, the dairy, the limestone quarry, the concrete plant, the machinery anything used in the corporation is taxed. Then you have 1.700 acres of land that is taxed.
for instance, in the county I live, I have a 1,200 sq ft house on a single lot. My tax on my lot and house this year was 2,000 dollars.
Harley, I'll trade you my taxes for yours, any day!!!
This year, 2008, I'll pay just shy of 7,500. for school and county property taxes....and I pay a state income tax..
My house is about 1200 sq. ft. also and my lot is about 1/3 of an acre.....
When I bought the house in 1984 my taxes were about 1000 a year....
and I pay a work priveledge tax in the city of Harrisburg...and a special borough tax for living in a historical district...lol
Walton
That was me.
kbp
Clearly, in Merrianne's case she has been seriously indoctrinated. It's really not a matter of anyone imposing beliefs on her. It's allowing her to be exposed to a variety of beliefs so that she can make some choice of her own.
Rericson
Texas is a right to work state, which means, Texas sucks as far as pay scale.
Most cities pay minimum wage. Unless your a professional with a degree, like Master Degree.
Harley, Pa. is also a 'right to work' state. Wages and cost of living vary widely...Philadelphia and the southeastern counties are comprable to NYC, very strong unions...good wages....
Central and western Pa. are average...northeastern is a bit higher...but up along the Pa. NY border it is very, very poor, rural....
Even a masters in that area of the state doesn't earn you much...local therapists and teachers make in the 35-45 range....
Whereas in the greater Philadelphia area they might make 45-75...same people, same jobs, same education....
Harley,
The count of those Texas saved is still zero. There are a few reasons some have not returned to the ranch, but you're back to supposing if you say it is because they left. If they want tout none are reported to have made that choice.
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Ron:
"Clearly, in Merrianne's case she has been seriously indoctrinated. It's really not a matter of anyone imposing beliefs on her. It's allowing her to be exposed to a variety of beliefs so that she can make some choice of her own."
Would 120 days with a Baptist family be sufficient? LOL! I have no idea how you could determine which children pass your criteria and which do not.
Example: A mother has 5 kids but only disciplines her daughter with a broom, shoe, stick, horsewhip or anything else she can get her hands on.
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My mother broke my back with a broom but I would had rather risked staying with her rather than stay with some foster parents that I now know.
I know one in particular that used to make slaves of the children. DSS finally took her license away but she took in children for years.
This is a novel for Christmas. It will be interesting later, when a jury for a civil complaint reads what the CPS' mindset still is almost 8 months later.
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I found out what this was novel for it wasn't about Christmas it was about Prophet Joseph Smiths birthday.
I don't get shocked much these days about much....but that did shock me.
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