Betty's story
Photos by Trent Nelson
Last May, I walked into the Tom Green County Courthouse where court hearings in the FLDS cases were about to get underway.
I sat on a bench next to a couple women, both of whom I recognized. Other reporters were milling about, so I quietly said to one of the women: ''Hello. I know who you are but I am not going to say a word."
She said, ''Thank you.''
It was Betty Jessop, and I recognized her from a picture in her mother Carolyn's book.
I have wanted to interview Betty ever since. I had the same question lots of people do: Why did she return to the FLDS?
I get telephone calls and emails regularly from people across the country who have read Carolyn's book ''Escape'' and want to know what happened to Betty and why she went back to her father, Merril Jessop. I know people are very interested in her story.
And now she is preparing to tell it. I wrote a story in today's paper about Betty and her work on a book about her experiences. I have now interviewed her twice: Once briefly in August after Barbara Jessop's daughter was returned to state custody (Betty was living with Barbara); and earlier this month at the Yearning For Zion Ranch in Eldorado.
I have read a handful of chapters she has written for her book, which does not yet have a publisher. They were insightful and revealing, both about Betty, her family and her world view.
What's Betty like? Lively, opinionated, funny, sweet, determined. As we spoke at the ranch, a cluster of other young women often gathered around Betty, beaming at her.
Here is one story she told me about why she decided to write the book, but that did not make today's article:
Betty was getting ready to move to Texas when the raid occurred. On April 5, she was at a brother's home, and was searching the Internet for news clips about the raid.
''I saw mother on the news giving her ideas about the raid, and it, well, it infuriated me, to a whole different degree! She had put me through hell for five years and when I finally broken free, she turned around and helped do it to my entire family and community,'' Betty wrote me in an email. ''I had to work with myself not to call her up and scream at her. I had to pray hard to calm myself down.''
Instead, Betty sent her mother a text message. ''How much did you have to do with the raid?'' she asked.
Ten minutes passed. No reply.
So she said she sent a second message.
''I looked down at my phone and started to write. It took me about five minutes to think of what I could say that had power behind every word. This is what I came up with: 'I have always wondered what I would tell my future generations about my mother. It's a sad story that the fact of the matter is, she did everything in her power to destroy the chance of their existence!'
Betty told me her mother did not respond, ''at least not directly.'' The next day, Betty saw another news interview with her mother.
''This time she talked about me, and how I burned through twelve counselors because I was so brainwashed. So, the message I sent, I believe she heard it loud and clear, and it made her mad!''
''Like I have told you before, if you don't support her or have the same opinion, YOU'RE BRAINWASHED!''
Carolyn Jessop declined to speak with me about Betty, but says in her book she considers her daughter brainwashed and holds out hope she will come back to her some day.
67 Comments:
What an admirable young woman. She stands for what she believes is right regardless of the sacrifice. Her professional-victim-mom would do well to emulate the intestinal fortitude of her daughter.
Oh..but then I'm probably "brainwashed"...what a joke.
Betty? Brainwashed? Hmpf.
She seems rather like she has her head on straight, if you ask me. Her comment to her mother about broke my heart. I am sure Betty struggles very deeply with the fact that her mother has launched a crusade against everything Betty holds dear. Yet Betty remains patient and sweet through it all.
These folks really do live their religion.
How are Carolyn's other children doing? Do they feel the same as Betty? Did her older brohter Arthur go back to the FLDS? Also,does Betty mention whether her father is paying any child support for all her brothers and sisters? And to Bruce, how is Carolyn a professional victim mom? Do you know Carolyn?
I haven't read any of the books written around this issue but I'm interested in reading this one.
Shawn, Bruce is a small minded man who likes to attack any who disparage his way of life. Best bet is to ignore him. But that's not uncommon with extreme religious groups. They thrive on "blame and shame" which tends to lead to name calling on a large scale.
Will an expert please give a reliable definition of "brainwashed" as it applies here? I've heard "brainwashing" is not a legal term. Do psychologists actually use this term? Or is Carolyn just using it as a trigger word to ramp up publicity for her book sales.
When it comes to one's own daughter, name calling is pretty low.
Betty is an adult by law, and chose to go back to Flds. That was her decision.
She was evidently around 14yrs old when her mother took all her children and left. Since Betty isn't married as of yet, maybe she still doesn't undertand all her mother went through being married to Merril.
Im not surprised Betty went back, because few of these people teach their children how to be self sufficent, coping skills out of thier enviroment, basic skills other than the ones taught from birth.
Some have left, both men and women, and they readily agree, it is very much a culture shock, once they leave the isolation of Flds.
I have several questions for Betty myself. Is she writing the book to damn her mother? Since she has never been appointed a husband, how would she feel, if she was and didn't want to marry the man assigned to her?
Why didn't she testify in the hearing her mother in Texas in which her mother testified? She had that chance.
And lastly, sometimes Mothers do what they have to do in an abusive situation, and children don't understand the steps their mother's are willing to take, to keep their children out of the problems.
I've read Carolyn's book, and Elissa's book, and although they do tell about their personal experiences, they also talk about the love they had for many who were in Flds. And how difficult it was to make the decision to leave, take their children and start a new life.
Carolyn will always be Betty's mother and Betty will always be Carolyns daughter. It is my hope, they come to some understanding personally between them.
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Brooke you have stepped over that line of being an abettor. If your not a part of the solution, then why expose the problem in an empathetic way and off focused way? Polygamy is on trial but not as a religious belief but for it's results and causations. Betty Jane is a part of the evidence but not the reason for the Texas Exodus. The Texas Exodus was initiated by Warren Jeffs and his cohorts and it has proven to be an unmitigated disaster for the FLDS Church. Was this a Revelation or fruits of a false Prophet? Get to work on that knowledge and don't lose sight of what really is the story.
HARLEY Said: Carolyn will always be Betty's mother and Betty will always be Carolyns daughter. It is my hope, they come to some understanding personally between them. 12:46 PM
CHRIST Said (Matt.12:47): Then one said unto him, Behold, thy mother and thy brethren stand without, desiring to speak with thee.
48. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren?
49. And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren!
50. For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.
brainwash
verb
1. persuade completely, often through coercion; "The propaganda brainwashed many people"
2. submit to brainwashing; indoctrinate forcibly
hows that ztg?
Ziggy
Brainwashing is neither a psychological nor legal term.
If you look in the psychiatric "bible" the DSM-IV, brainwashing is not listed. Probably the closed you can come is shared psychotic disorder also known as folie a deux.
Brainwashing and "mind control" are widely debated topics in psychology. There were two very famous experiments that showed that our relationships to authority can affect our behavior. One was by a guy named Stanley Milgram and the other was called the Stanford Prison experiment that was lead by a Philip Zimbardo.
In the context of children and families, a guy named Richard Garner has put forth a syndrome called parental alienation syndrome. It has received a lot of study and is being considered for including in the revision of the DSM (DSM-V).
Hazzbinns said...
Brooke you have stepped over that line of being an abettor. If your not a part of the solution, then why expose the problem in an empathetic way and off focused way? Polygamy is on trial but not as a religious belief but for it's results and causations. Betty Jane is a part of the evidence but not the reason for the Texas Exodus. The Texas Exodus was initiated by Warren Jeffs and his cohorts and it has proven to be an unmitigated disaster for the FLDS Church. Was this a Revelation or fruits of a false Prophet? Get to work on that knowledge and don't lose sight of what really is the story. 1:41 PM
STREET's REPLY: To abett is to unite. Are you all abettors to innocence, or the enemy of what is good and wholesome? A top-knotch reporter will seek the unity and good of society, not to destroy it.
HERE IS THE REAL STORY, AND A REVELATION THAT REINSTATES IT:
Revelation to Street January 27, 2009. I inquired of the Lord to know if I should defend the Illinois governor, seeing how the media and federal government are railroading him without witnesses or evidence to defend him. Today, the federal government is doing battle with the states. They wire-tapped the governor’s home to gain evidence of crimes, and is attacking every state and their sources of funding, and their statewide programs and institutions. The fall of the nation is imminent, and in full swing. “Humpty Dumpty is having a great fall, and all the king’s horses, and all the king’s men, cannot put Humpty back together again”. The Lord gave me this answer:
Behold, thus saith the Lord. It is even as a spoke in days of yore. “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation. Every city and house divided against itself shall not stand” (Matt.12:25). “For the great day of my wrath is come, and who shall be able to stand” (Rev.6:17)?
“Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes in diverse places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you, and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake” (Matt.24:7)… “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved” (v.13).
It is even heaven over abysmal water, the upper house moving up, and the lower house moving down, the two moving apart one from the other. It is the cunning of the higher government against the guile and determination of the lower. A kingdom of this character is most certainly quarrelsome and divided. Halt! Do not defend him. A cautious halt halfway bringeth unto thee good fortune. They martyred my Servant in the year 1844, and forced thousands of men, women, and children of my saints into the deadly Winter, where many died.
Forget not the fate of Nauvoo! Oppressed by a proud boasting nation, your numbers may be few. But your union is known throughout creation, and you’ve always been faithful and true. Shall ye bear with oppression forever? Shall ye tamely submit to the foe, while the ties of your kindred they sever, and the blood of the prophets doth flow? No! The thought sets the heart wildly beating! Thy vows at each pulse shall renew. Ne’er to rest till thy foes are retreating, and to be ever faithful and true.
When the god-hating foe is before you, stand firm and be faithful and true. Though assisted by legions infernal, the plundering wretches advance, with a host from the regions eternal, will scatter their troops at a glance. Soon the Kingdom will be independent. In wonder the nations will view, the despised ones in glory resplendent. Then be thou faithful and true, and thou shalt find thy rest in me, even your Lord Jesus Christ, the creator of the world. For I am He.
Even so. Amen.
Harley,
In the article I read it said that Merril specifically told Betty he didn't want her to "bash" her mother. It also said that Betty has worked hard to overcome her anger at her mother's actions in taking her away from the FLDS. I think this will be a good book to read because it will be a good window into the thinking of people who really do like being a part of an extremely strict religion. Betty is clearly happy to be back in the FLDS and has made her choice willingly. From what has been said before, it would appear that if Betty had any issues with the man chosen for her to marry she could say so and would not have to marry him. I would imagine that is especially true right now while the spotlight is on the FLDS as a whole. I hope some of these answers help. ;)
"They martyred my Servant in the year 1844, and forced thousands of men, women, and children of my saints into the deadly Winter, where many died."
Is it really martyrdom if you go out in a hail of bullets, with yours killing at least two other people?
Is it really being "forced" into a deadly winter when you're leaders were fleeing a warrant for their arrest and the agreement for the rest was that they could wait until spring?
Persecution, such a lovely claim for religions...
Obviously rebekah and harley do not understand that the FLDS basically are at war with society. No one likes war. Either side uses propaganda to rally their respective populations. But if you want to stay neutral, you have to respect both viewpoints. I would never be a member of the FLDS, but at the same time I'm not a willing warrior for the cause of materialistic individualism, which is apparently the alternate cult that Carolyn has chosen.
There is indeed a culture war going on; and both sides think they're right; and the FLDS side is vastly outnumbered.
Rebeckah
I'm sure it was Bettys decision to go back. Just as it was Carolyns decision to make public her own abuse and the inner workings of Flds.
Does Carolyn bringing out abuses within make her evil? I don't think so. With Abuse rampant in this country and many other countries, bringing secrets to light, help bring solutions. Although , it may not be quick enough for some.
Ztg, LOL you are the most unneutral person I've ever seen. And on top of that your racist.
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ztgstmv said (2:34 PM):
There is indeed a culture war going on; and both sides think they're right; and the FLDS side is vastly outnumbered.
REPLY: Oppressed by a proud boasting nation, your numbers may be few. But your union is known throughout creation…Ne’er to rest till thy foes are retreating…When the god-hating foe is before you, assisted by legions infernal, the plundering wretches advance, with a host from the regions eternal, will scatter their troops at a glance.
onthestreet, I've not heard anyone say they hate Flds as people. The fact Flds think they have a right to break law is what disturbs most of the people here.
As long as humans live on this earth, there will be laws we all have to abide by. Some laws you simply get a ticket for, like driving over the speed limit. Others, like marrying underage girls, which is clearly against the law, there is more involved.
Religion isn't an excuse for breaking this law. In fact, Ignorance of the Law is no excuse.
Shawn, Carolyn is a "professional victim" because she makes money (i.e. 'professional') off the perception of her as a victim - through book deals, and the like. That's a simple fact.
Religion isn't an excuse for breaking this law
What about civil rights, as in civil disobedience?
WHOSE TRUTH IS PUBLIC
harley said (2:36 PM):
Rebeckah, I'm sure it was Bettys decision to go back. Just as it was Carolyns decision to make public her own abuse and the inner workings of Flds. Does Carolyn bringing out abuses within make her evil? I don't think so. With Abuse rampant in this country and many other countries, bringing secrets to light, help bring solutions. Although , it may not be quick enough for some.
harley said... Ztg, LOL you are the most unneutral person I've ever seen. And on top of that your racist.
STREET's REPLY: Harley, how so is ztg’s statement “racist”? There’s no reference to race there whatsoever. Any dog can grit its teeth, and any criminal can rattle a sabre or foment alarm, just be screaming “FIRE”. But it takes a neutral and stable mind to not participate in the stampede and kill each other in the process, especially seeing how you oppose the respecting of our viewpoints.
As for your reply to beka, who’s making abuse public? Is it the inner workings of Carolyn’s unstable mind made public, because her spirit is not sweet and is unstable, or is it Betty suffering abuse at the hand of her mother for stripping her from her father and her God and all that she ever loved. Is that the truth that is made public? Just because somebody says something in public doesn’t equate to the truth being made public. If you believe that, then your mind is extremely unstable, and you can be blown to and fro with every wind that blows, and it will destroy you.
It is the bringing out of falsely-presumed abuses that makes a woman evil, even if she published it in a book, like Carolyn has done. That is her heaven, so she's got her profit and her reward.
Harley,
"Does Carolyn bringing out abuses within make her evil? I don't think so."
I don't think so either. I DO think that some of her book was sensationalized and probably some of what she wrote was gossip that she presented as hard fact. I also think she desperately wants to make the people she loves who are still in the FLDS see it for the hurtful sham that she thinks it is. But she is going about it the wrong way and entrenching their faith in how "right" they are because of the horrible "persecution" of apostates. That's why I think Betty's book will be good to read. We've gotten plenty from those who actually left, let's check out the thought processes of those who stay.
HARLEY SAID(3:02 PM): Onthestreet, I've not heard anyone say they hate Flds as people. REPLY: Every soul in all the world who opposes a people’s religious right, as revealed in the revealed Word of God, hate us, and they hate God too. So all that is of this world is worldly, and hated of God…”These things doth GOD HATE”, see. Those are God’s Words, not mine.
HARLEY SAID: The fact Flds think they have a right to break law is what disturbs most of the people here. REPLY: Ahh, but who indeed is breaking the law by mass-murdering millions of innocent little children, depriving them of their very lives, while the FLDS gives life, and that abundantly. Get real. The whole world knows that in this, the FLDS is the keeper of the law, and the society as a whole by sustaining such things, are the breakers of the law, enmass. This is the fulfillment of the Lord’s decree that “Few there be that find it”, NOT many, enmass, but FEW. Even “conservative” “pro-life” Republicans sustain the slaying of the children when the mother appears a little uncomfortable, or at risk. That is the pro-life stance, to slay the babies if the mother is at risk, making you mass-murders still.
Then, look at the universal sexual perversion of the nation and the world. Any man who has sex with a women is an adulterer, saith the Lord (Matt.5:28). The FLDS strive and succeed quite well in avoiding that. Every FLDS prophet has decreed the law: “Leave those women alone”, and to approach perfection this even applies to conception.
HARLEY SAID: As long as humans live on this earth, there will be laws we all have to abide by. Some laws you simply get a ticket for, like driving over the speed limit. Others, like marrying underage girls, which is clearly against the law, there is more involved. Religion isn't an excuse for breaking this law. In fact, Ignorance of the Law is no excuse. REPLY: “Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils, Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron, Forbidding to marry (I Timothy 4:1-3).
There’s the breaking of the law, forbidding to marry. God commands it from Eden until now: “Multiply and replenish the earth”, and according to the law, even at puberty. Here’s the law on that: “DO NOT DELAY to offer the FIRST of thy ripe fruits and liquors" (Exodus 15:3), the first of a maiden’s liquors being her first menses. THERE’s THE LAW.
Many forget that the purpose of the law is to PROTECT the civil and religious rights of the people, NOT to violate them. That is the sole purpose of government and law. So as our Declaration of Independance states, once a nation ceases to do that, it is not only our right, but our DUTY, to throw off such a government. This is why the Lord has raised up President Obama and His ministers in government today (Romans 13:4-6), to throw down this nation, so that God's righteous reign may transplant it. This is what God is doing today.
Barakel, which means literally: "God has blessed".
Well said onthestreet. You certainly know the scripture.
Onthestreet said:
Then, look at the universal sexual perversion of the nation and the world. Any man who has sex with a women is an adulterer, saith the Lord (Matt.5:28). The FLDS strive and succeed quite well in avoiding that. Every FLDS prophet has decreed the law: “Leave those women alone”, and to approach perfection this even applies to conception.
******************
You have got to be kidding me? Your so called "prophet" has married underage girls of which one at the age of 14 had a baby. It's not legal to have more than one wife onthestreet, regardless what so called prophet you refer to.
These men are still adulterers, the the women they marry illegally are concubines, plain and simple.
Leave little girls alone, let them grow up, let them marry who they fall in love with, someone closer to their own age. And then let that couple grow emotionally, together. There is more to marriage than just popping out babies every year onthestreet, although I understand you don't see it that way.
Im against Abortion, and would never have one, or suggest any other woman have one. But, that choice is for each woman to make, and since it is legal,until the law changes there isn't much a person can do.
It's very sad to me, that so many believe all the women, including those who never wrote a book from FLDS are liars and haters. Maybe if Carolyn was the only woman who ever said something about abuse amoung FLDS, I would wonder. But there have been far to many who have spoken out. The list goes on and on, and most speak the same truths.
Harley,
Street is certifiable. Discussion with him is impossible because he simply isn't rational. You don't have to take it, but my advice is to simply ignore him. By the way, he grew up FLDS but is no longer a member.
HARLEY SAID: These men are still adulterers, the the the women (don't stutter there, Harley. Just calm down, and you'll be able to talk straight. I know I got your gander up, and your tit in a wringer, but yank it, and you'll be able to pull it back out. Okay now, take a deep breath, and let's try this again...
THE women they marry illegally are concubines, plain and simple.
Leave little girls alone, let them grow up, let them marry who they fall in love with.
STREET's REPLY: There you go, well said: "LET THEM GROW UP, AND MARRY WHO THEY FALL IN LOVE WITH". That is exactly what they ALL are doing, growing up by becoming young mothers, and falling in love with the man they are appointed to marry, for that is their first love, the appointment of God.
Marriage is of God, not of man. The violation of marriage is of man.
Well put, putt putt.
Street
Rebeckah said (4:12 PM):
Harley, Street is certifiable. Discussion with him is impossible because he simply isn't rational. You don't have to take it, but my advice is to simply ignore him. By the way, he grew up FLDS but is no longer a member.
REPLY: Certifiable, I am. Thank you for the compliment. As for
“impossible”, without this faith, it is IMPOSSIBLE to please God” (Hebrews 11:6). See, it is straight from God Himself. It is simply NOT faith, if it can be shaken.
Now, as for "Irrational", "the
natural and rational mind is an enemy to God”. “Logic” is the very thing that kills all revelation from on high, the making of excuses for convenience sake. It was the logic of the LDS Church to become whores, to sell themselves for gain, in 1890. That was simply the “RATIONAL” thing to do.
Once a member, always a member, IF you retain your faith and grow in it. That is the very purpose of this life. If the Prophet set some apart to repent from afar, what a glorious mission repentance is. It prepares you to see God.
Thank you for your many compliments. The wicked cannot help themselves. They MUST praise the light, when it shines, for it gives them life, or else they cut themselves off from this life and the next.
Street
Ron: Ziggy
Brainwashing is neither a psychological nor legal term.
...
Thanks for the explanation Ron. So now we know that Carolyn's assertions that Betty is brainwashed have little or no scientific basis.
harley: It's not legal to have more than one wife onthestreet, regardless what so called prophet you refer to.
Is it legal to have more than one girlfriend? Is it legal to bear children with more than one woman? If so, what's the difference? In a word, semantics, nothing more.
Rebekah: Discussion with him is impossible because he simply isn't rational. You don't have to take it, but my advice is to simply ignore him.
Funny, I think the same about you half the time. Most of what you say is not rational, plus you're from another country, a socialist country, so you couldn't possibly understand our fight as Americans to maintain our freedoms in the face of such an international onslaught from the likes of you. No offense.
How did Carolyn take Betty away from her God? I am a Christian - God doesn't just hear you when you are in church - or in Betty's case, the twin cities. Also, how would Carolyn taking Betty with her cause her child to think that Betty's future children would be denied an existence? It surely sounds like mind control to me!
Paul,
Interesting questions. I'm guessing there will be an answer to them in her book. ;)
Exd 15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name. That verse has nothing to do with a girl or her menses onthestreet.
You worship a man, not God. Who is Warren Jeffs to decide a man's repentance? Repentance is between a man and God. Forgiveness is between man and God.
Not between man and warren steed jeffs.
Take the pictures down you worship of warren onthestreet, that's considered Idol worship.
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
1Ti 4:2 Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
1Ti 4:3 Forbidding to marry, [and commanding] to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
1Ti 4:4 For every creature of God [is] good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
1Ti 4:5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
Paul,
Once again, FLDS don't teach their childre how to socialize with anyone but their own members. I'm sure Betty felt lost outside twin cities because she had been born there, raised there, that's all she knew.
Righteousness doesnt depend on what neighborhood you live in, or what color your skin is, or having friends outside your particular religion.
If any human being could "live the law" of God, there would have been No reason for the sacrifice of Christ.
Thanks Brooke,
Interesting subject you share with us.
Harley:
"I've not heard anyone say they hate Flds as people. The fact Flds think they have a right to break law is what disturbs most of the people here."
It's odd to read that since your other comments condemn them for not teaching their children to be ready for an escape into the outside world, they are forced to marry a spouse chosen by others....
Do you just hate what "FLDS" is? The beliefs but not those that believe?
Paul, Betty was referring to the YFZ raid, where 440 children were taken captive, and Carolyn, Betty's mother, was assisting in the kidnapping; in fact she was at Arrow adoption services training the staff how to gently de-program the children when the Supreme Court ruled they had to be returned. Carolyn, at that instant groaned, "We have just lost another generation."
That's what Betty is referring to: her mother was at that time an agent of genocide and would have, if given the opportunity, advocated for denying Betty's right to have children, just like the state was set to advocate for the termination of parental rights of all the other FLDS mothers in Texas.
harley, spare us your dime-store religious sermons. I think most of us here have our own religion, thank you very much.
Kbp No I don't hate any human being, I dislike the fact that flds break laws with children. It sickens me that parents condone such actions.
It's their actions I disagree with, and so do the law of most every state.
Ztg, grow up!
Z,
"That's what Betty is referring to: her mother was at that time an agent of genocide..."
Z, PLEASE get yourself a girlfriend! Your adolescent penchant for exaggeration is getting out of hand.
The girls will write the truth as intended.
harley said: "Im against Abortion, and would never have one, or suggest any other woman have one."
I thought you said that you were a man with a wife and four children, harley? Or should I say "merrie"?
harley says: I dislike the fact that flds break laws with children. It sickens me that parents condone such actions.
funny you speak of condone'n, 'cuz it sickens me that you all condone passing out condoms to 11 year olds in your crappy public schools.
Ziggy said:
Ron: Ziggy
Brainwashing is neither a psychological nor legal term.
...
Thanks for the explanation Ron. So now we know that Carolyn's assertions that Betty is brainwashed have little or no scientific basis.
This is your problem. You get a little information and run with your own foregone conclusions for your very small world.
Just because "brainwashing" is not in DSM-IV does not mean there is no "scientific basis" for the idea of brainwashing.
From Phillip Zimbardo in 2002 when he was President of the American Psychological Association:
"A body of social science evidence shows that when systematically practiced by state-sanctioned police, military or destructive cults, mind control can induce false confessions, create converts who willingly torture or kill "invented enemies," engage indoctrinated members to work tirelessly, give up their money—and even their lives—for "the cause." (Zimbardo, 2002)
Geez, Ziggy, try pulling your head out.
Harley
No offense dude, but in the future I'd suggest you don't quote scripture. It's truly a lose-lose proposition.
You're reading of a particular passage could be interpreted totally opposite by someone else.
It only proves that people pick and choose their theology. Any study of scripture is going to start with our own world view.
Ziggy said:
harley says: I dislike the fact that flds break laws with children. It sickens me that parents condone such actions.
funny you speak of condone'n, 'cuz it sickens me that you all condone passing out condoms to 11 year olds in your crappy public schools.
Ziggy, I already told you, Mommy says to get off the computer and do your readings from Mein Kampf for the day.
Ron...Maybe there's such a thing as "mind control."
What now? Make it illegal? Demonize the adherents? What course of action with respect to all these mind controlled drones do you suggest?
My opinion on mind control is that it's everywhere, only in different degrees. For instance, the hypnotic way with which a million idle housewives reacted with singular horror to the fantasies of Carolyn Jessop, is something I would call a form of mind control. TV is an agent of mind control (that's why I don't own one). Obama mind-controlled 50-100 million people to vote for him, and they're still out there singing his praises like a bunch of robots.
Mind control is every where. And believe it or not some people find it desirous to be "mind-controlled." That's the ultimate goal of Christian fundamentalism: faith. They work tirelessly toward this ideal where they no longer doubt anything, because doubt is sin. To doubt their minister or elder is to them a stain on their self-image. Are you going to outlaw fundamentalist Christianity?
Ron
"A body of social science evidence shows that when systematically practiced by state-sanctioned police, military or destructive cults, mind control can induce false confessions,
So you are admitting Warren Jeffs is innocent?
The sad irony is that a person who is BRAINWASHED certainly will NOT be aware of it.
Harley said:
"Im not surprised Betty went back, because few of these people teach their children how to be self sufficent, coping skills out of thier enviroment, basic skills other than the ones taught from birth."
So that explains why the FLDS have doctors,dentists, professional teachers, machinists, professional builders, certified electricians, plumbers, engineers, police officers, etc., etc., etc., among them, in short, every profession you find among "mainstream" besides maybe a lawyer, and heaven knows there are enough of those in the world.
Even Carolyn herself readily admits to going to college. What happened to her? Do you think she was the only FLDS woman to go to college? And you believe all that bull?
Another
Your adolescent penchant for exaggeration is getting out of hand.
It's not "exaggeration" in any way. Do you know how genocide is defined in international law?
Rebeckah...it's interesting that you dismiss Onthestreet ~ "By the way, he grew up FLDS but is no longer a member."
Carolyn also meets those parameters - do you so easily dismiss what she has to say?
lol
Brooke,
This was an excellent article. Thank you for sharing it with us and for introducing us to Betty. She and Merrianne look very similar and their stories are running in parallel lines - Merrianne, too, has been forced away from all that she knows and loves FOR A TIME.
I wish the girls every success in writing their book. Maybe Merrianne can contribute a chapter, too. (Perhaps including a chapter on CPS jail hell will be more of a sales-getter.)
I'm sure, since there will be no lies and slamming in it, that it will not have the media appeal of the tabloids produced by Carolyn, Flora, and Elissa, but thank God that the truth will be published, even it is not received.
God bless you girls. I look forward to reading your book.
Brooke, I also want to thank you for bringing us "Betty's Story".
"Culture is the overarching determinant of how we see the world and how we identify ourselves.
Acceptance that multiple cultures can coexist is abjectly necessary to be successful in the helping professions.
You cannot get to acceptance if you hold on to the belief of fundamental, inflexible standards.
For an individual to choose to shift, or change, their culture, there has to be a worthwhile “carrot” on the other side. Worthwhile is determined by the person being asked to change, not you, and sometimes there is no worthwhile "carrot"."
These are the opening lines in a book for social work classes....
Perhaps it is in the inability some folks have to accept the culture of the FLDS community as legitimate that comes the need for terms like "brainwashed", or "coerced".
Hopefully this young lady will be able to tell us about her chosen culture in a way that helps folks get over some of their emotional hurdles. Hopefully the beautiful smile Trent captured will shine through her writing.
Hopefully this book will be a work in how to bridge the culture gap and befriend, instead of demonize, this community.
"Carolyn also meets those parameters - do you so easily dismiss what she has to say?"
I take what she says with a grain of salt because I think she's exaggerated and spoken of rumor as if it were fact. However, both she and Street have "threads" to their words that show similarities. Have you noticed how totally abusive Street's opinions on women are? Some within the FLDS may not get the message that women are second class citizens, but many apparently do, Street and Carolyn being just two of them.
Oh, and I wasn't "dismissing" Street for having been a member. I "dismiss" his ravings because he's pretty clearly psychotic. I find it interesting, however, that what he brought out of the FLDS with him was what he raves about (the immorality of any human who doesn't agree with him, an obsessive and vulgar interest in the physical processes of the body, women being "unclean" and, of course, an obsession with barely pubecesent girls.) I believe the FLDS find him quite embarrasing, in part, because his rants are a (very) twisted reflection of the their core beliefs.
Ron said: "Harley
No offense dude,......"
Ron, if harley's a 'dude' then I'm Mother Teresa!!
harley said (5:40 PM):
Exd 15:3 The LORD [is] a man of war: the LORD [is] his name. That verse has nothing to do with a girl or her menses onthestreet.
REPLY: Exodus 22:29.
You worship a man, not God. Who is Warren Jeffs to decide a man's repentance? Repentance is between a man and God. Forgiveness is between man and God.
Not between man and warren steed jeffs. Take the pictures down you worship of warren onthestreet, that's considered Idol worship.
REPLY: Ahh, did Israel worship Israel, Moses, Isaiah, Elija, Samuel. Having a true prophet over you is NOT the problem. NOT having one is your problem.
Street
"REPLY: Ahh, did Israel worship Israel, Moses, Isaiah, Elija, Samuel."
No, as a matter of fact they didn't. I'm pretty sure those prophets weren't deciding who married who or exactly what people could wear either. But I could be wrong.
"Having a true prophet over you is NOT the problem. NOT having one is your problem."
I'll tell you what, you get YOUR problem under control and then I'll be willing to give your analysis of our problem an ounce of weight.
Rebeckah said: "No, as a matter of fact they didn't. I'm pretty sure those prophets weren't deciding who married who or exactly what people could wear either. But I could be wrong."
You're "pretty sure"? Why aren't you "sure, sure" or "certain" or "positive" or .... oh never mind just admit that you really don't even know anything about it!
"You're "pretty sure"? Why aren't you "sure, sure" or "certain" or "positive" or .... oh never mind just admit that you really don't even know anything about it!"
Sure I will, Cheese, right after you admit the same. You don't KNOW a darned thing about the "truths" you proclaim as your justification for how you live your life. So you admit that you don't know anything "true" and I'll cheerfully do the same.
Sigh. Poor Betty. Betty darling, I wonder how you will feel when you are married to a a man who is twice or three times you age one day. Oh, of course. you are living righteously and will move onto a heavenly existence when you pass while the rest of us crazy non FLDS fools will suffer for eternity in hell...or whatever terrible place you people believe we non-believers will move on to. Hmmmm....
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