Big Love imitates life
You may not want to talk about ''Big Love'' but I do. And if you want to see how current events are being portrayed in pop culture, you ought to tune in. I had to grab a notebook a few minutes into tonight's premiere. From one minute to the next, real life was intruding on art.
For starters, the show used real footage from the raid in Texas with a pseudo newscast about a crackdown on the fictional compound of Juniper Creek. The footage showed women and children as they were being walked from the Baptist Church in Eldorado to the buses that would take them to Fort Concho in San Angelo.
Moments later, a fake newscaster described how fictional sect leader Roman Grant had underage girls walk across state lines to avoid Mann Act violations. Roman faces ''rape'' charges related to underage marriages. Later, a deputy in the Attorney General's Office laments about losing two ''Jane Does'' as witnesses in the case.
This summer I heard the ''walk over the line'' tactic used in a different context: A young woman who was ''helped'' out of the FLDS community by Flora Jessop told me that Jessop's associates had her walk across the state line at the border between Colorado and Utah to avoid Mann Act violations.
Another new story thread: Nikki is working in the Utah Attorney General's Office.
Hmm, sounds a lot like the story of Laura Fuller, a member of the Kingston family who got a clerking job in Utah's Third District Court while in law school but was later ousted because she was a plural wife of John Daniel Kingston. Fuller was able to fill a different clerkship a year later, as I recall.
Nikki converses at one point with another fundamentalist woman who is leaving the AG's Office to go work in the State Tax Commission Office. The woman tells Nikki that ''Friday is cake day.''
I almost fell off my sofa laughing at that one. Did someone tell the ''Big Love'' guys that every time an employee leaves the Salt Lake Tribune we have cake on their final day?
A Lost Boy by the name of Frankie shows up at Bill's office asking for help. We learned in the first season that Bill was a Lost Boy himself once upon a time. Frankie tells Bill that he got kicked out of the community because ''I just talked to a girl.''
Frankie wants Bill's help returning home. ''I miss my mom and my brothers and sisters,'' he says.
Ouch, there was a touchy moment for the fundamentalist Mormons and mainstream Mormons alike. Bill is trying to partner with Jerry, a Native American man, to build a Mormon-friendly casino over the border in Idaho. The businessman's daughter questions Bill about the ''odd'' Mormon view of Native Americans, referencing Book of Mormon scripture that refers to a time when they will become ''white and delightsome.''
A couple of my favorite lines:
''While you all are at the block party I'll stay home and roof.'' Nikki after the rest of the family decides to attend the neighborhood block party, which she fears will expose the family to too much scrutiny.
''We're not going to give these people the power to define us.'' Bill Hendrickson, trying to rally his family against neighborhood criticism.
For starters, the show used real footage from the raid in Texas with a pseudo newscast about a crackdown on the fictional compound of Juniper Creek. The footage showed women and children as they were being walked from the Baptist Church in Eldorado to the buses that would take them to Fort Concho in San Angelo.
Moments later, a fake newscaster described how fictional sect leader Roman Grant had underage girls walk across state lines to avoid Mann Act violations. Roman faces ''rape'' charges related to underage marriages. Later, a deputy in the Attorney General's Office laments about losing two ''Jane Does'' as witnesses in the case.
This summer I heard the ''walk over the line'' tactic used in a different context: A young woman who was ''helped'' out of the FLDS community by Flora Jessop told me that Jessop's associates had her walk across the state line at the border between Colorado and Utah to avoid Mann Act violations.
Another new story thread: Nikki is working in the Utah Attorney General's Office.
Hmm, sounds a lot like the story of Laura Fuller, a member of the Kingston family who got a clerking job in Utah's Third District Court while in law school but was later ousted because she was a plural wife of John Daniel Kingston. Fuller was able to fill a different clerkship a year later, as I recall.
Nikki converses at one point with another fundamentalist woman who is leaving the AG's Office to go work in the State Tax Commission Office. The woman tells Nikki that ''Friday is cake day.''
I almost fell off my sofa laughing at that one. Did someone tell the ''Big Love'' guys that every time an employee leaves the Salt Lake Tribune we have cake on their final day?
A Lost Boy by the name of Frankie shows up at Bill's office asking for help. We learned in the first season that Bill was a Lost Boy himself once upon a time. Frankie tells Bill that he got kicked out of the community because ''I just talked to a girl.''
Frankie wants Bill's help returning home. ''I miss my mom and my brothers and sisters,'' he says.
Ouch, there was a touchy moment for the fundamentalist Mormons and mainstream Mormons alike. Bill is trying to partner with Jerry, a Native American man, to build a Mormon-friendly casino over the border in Idaho. The businessman's daughter questions Bill about the ''odd'' Mormon view of Native Americans, referencing Book of Mormon scripture that refers to a time when they will become ''white and delightsome.''
A couple of my favorite lines:
''While you all are at the block party I'll stay home and roof.'' Nikki after the rest of the family decides to attend the neighborhood block party, which she fears will expose the family to too much scrutiny.
''We're not going to give these people the power to define us.'' Bill Hendrickson, trying to rally his family against neighborhood criticism.
104 Comments:
bullshit imitates grass
Big Love lost me entirely on first sitting. Bill Paxton's character has a handful of Viagra and is contemplating his duties and that was sign off time for me.
For the first three seasons I avidly watched the show....half believing what was portrayed. Also, having my interest piqued in the plural lifestyle and curiosity about the various fundamental sects. It was back then that I started following this blog and others, including the "Texas FLDS" site.
After the last almost ten months of intensive learning about the FLDS, and to a lesser degree, some of the other fundamentalist sects, I watched in horror.
I kept wondering if Laurie's absense here, the last few days was related...or whether this was Carolyn and Laurie's work...what part had they played in this???
The bathroom scene with Albie was pretty awful....
I found it interesting that they seem to be taking the hard edges off of Roman's 'main' wife. Or is it that my perception of seeing her as a miserable 'hard-ass' has shifted to seeing her as a wiley business person?
The scene at the "compound" where Bill confronts his father about the exiled son was bizarre, but even more hateful was the sub-scene going on of the various wives being made to dig ditches/trenches for a sewer line.....
The other piece that I found discomforting was the whole story line around the block party...there was mention of the 'ward ?', I can't remember the term...but the ward something, saying something about the Hendersons being inactive...and they had a diagram showing all the houses, who lived in them, and their active/non-active status with the church...the whole damn neighborhood was covered....
I kept wondering how that was any different that the twin towns?
I can't imagine living in such homogenous conditions....and having neighborhood social functions somehow tied to religious affiliations.....
Is this what Salt Lake City and it's subburbs are like?
Does the LDS Church invade every aspect of folk's lives?
How does the non LDS population function? Are there LDS and non-LDS ghettos? (using 'ghetto' in it's literal and not colloquial meaning)
I love Big Love. But I watch it knowing it's a fictional tv show that sometimes imitates life.
I screamed when Anna showed up at the house!!
Meg, Good morning...
Just curious, what parts of the show strike you as actually imitating life...I ean other than the themes....
Any of the day to day living that is portrayed?
I have often wondered, at least up until last night's episode, if the daily life of the hendricksons was modeled after the Centenial Park folks?...at least what I've seen on T.V. of the Centennial Park families...that could be laden with media slant, too....
Pliggy
That's actually a very profound statement....
Regina, what you heard referenced was probably a Ward Stake. I believe that it's the neighborhoods that belong to a specific "church". (Although the LDS don't seem to refer to most of their meetings as a church service. They have something like Sunday School for children and young adults and testimony meetings and home studies (someone from the Church meets with you in your home to study the Mormon beliefs) and yes, it appears from what I've read that the Mormon church really IS that inclusive in people's lives. If given the opportunity, the Mormon church can occupy every free moment and then some in a family's life. It is, from what I've read, very hard to actually say "no" to the LDS chruch.
Guess Salt Lake is not going to be high on my list of cities I might like to retire to....
Lord, they'd have me hung, drawn, and quartered before sunset of my first day....
Never seen it. I hear that even Carolyn says it's BS compared to real life.
The one thing that is really 'real' is how close to the Carolyn, Flora, Laurie, stories are many of the elements of the show.....
It makes one wonder if any one single writer of the show has ever even attempted to talk to any single person currently a member of the FLDS community....
Perhaps they've talked to members of other fundamental communities..I certainly don't know, but clearly not the FLDS....
Yet so much is a 'spin' of those events that are uniquely FLDS....
Regina,
I believe as long as you aren't a Mormon to begin with it wouldn't be a problem. I believe, in fact, Mormons go out of their way to be gracious to non-Mormons as a way of showing how wonderful their faith is.
Regina, it's amazing that there are a few people that actually look into our lifestyle with an open mind. I lived in a very LDS neighborhood up until a year ago, as a polygamist. But not obviously, because my husbands other wife lived elsewhere. Most of them knew that I was either not LDS, or knew that I was a polygamist. I was not ostracized at all. Most of them were just normal, friendly neighbors. It may depend on the neighborhood. They did try to include me, however, in church functions by hanging their fliers on my door, and I did occasionally get a knock on my door by the missionaries. I felt like I was in a Mormon neighborhood, but not shunned or pressured by them. And from what I have gathered, most groups of people are accepted by LDS more than polygamists. If that helps. For the record, I find Big Love disgusting and offensive. Never been a fan, but have watched a few episodes.
In hopes of adding clarification, and in fear of only obscuring the matter a little more,and as a "main-stream" mormon descended from polygamist stock on both sides, who currently resides in Utah but has lived in several other states, and as someone who watches little TV, which means never having seen Big Love, (sorry about the run on sentence), I'm going to throw in my two-bits on the homogeneous nature of "mormon" society.
First a few definitions: a Ward is an ecclesiastical unit somewhat analogous to a parish;, everyone who lives within a particular geographic boundary, who is assigned to attend church at a particular time, in a particular building, under the stewardship of a Bishop, typically 300-700 people depending on level of activity or involvement of said population. In Utah that can mean a four square block radius. In Alabama, where we lived previously, it encompassed several towns. In Montana, where I lived as a child, it took several hours to go from one ward/branch boundary to another.
A Stake is comprised of 7-14 wards or branches (a unit smaller than a ward - typically 20-200 members)under the stewardship of a Stake President. Again, in Utah a stake may only be 5 miles in circumference, where as in other areas of the U.S. / world, it may encompass hundreds of square miles.
We have a lay ministry, which means just about anyone who is willing to serve has one or more jobs/callings. Callings change on a regular basis. You might serve in a particular area for anywhere from one month to several years.
Church meetings include a Sacrament meeting which everyone is invited to attend. Sunday School for 12 and up, Primary for 18 mos to 12 yrs old, Young Men/Young Women for 12-18, Relief Society for Women 18 and up, and Priesthood Quorums (which includes the 12-18 yr old males, with additional Quorums for the approximately 18-45 year old group and 45 and up - not exact as these quorums are not age dependent once you are older than 18).
Most of these meetings are held on Sunday, but there are opportunities for at least one mid-week activity for each of the youth groups, as well.
Additionally, there is seminary for the 14-18 yr olds, and institute for any one older than that. Seminary and institute are religious study classes that can be taken daily/semi-weekly depending on how large the unit is and how many are interested. In Utah, there is frequently release time from school for HS students. In other areas, the HS students may do early-morning seminary 5 days a week where they meet at the church or a member's home to study for 45 minutes before church or they may simply study at home on their own. Institutes are normally associated with colleges.
The only ones who may be paid are the seminary/institute teachers if they are teaching on a full-time basis.
As you might imagine, it takes a lot of people to staff such an organization. As a teenager, in a small branch in New Mexico, I had five callings: pianist for primary, chorister for Sunday School, chorister for Sacrament meeting, secretary for Young Womens, and president of my class in YW (there are 3-6 classes - again depending on how many people are in attendance).
Keeping up with all of this keeps us very busy. Most of us don't intend to ignore neighbors who don't attend our ward. It just happens. We tend to socialize with those whom we see regularly. Even within a ward, we most likely interact with those who serve in similar areas because those are the people we see. For those of us who work outside the home, as well, we are especially time-constrained.
All that being said, mormons are like the rest of the population. We can be as intolerant, insensitive, and bigoted, or as welcoming, caring and inclusive as anyone else. Hopefully, we are working on being more Christ-like. Somedays I do better than other days.
Reading this blog and other blogs relating to the FLDS YFZ debacle, tells me that as a people, we apparently could do with some improving.
I know I have learned a great deal by reading these blogs on a regular basis. Regina, I have been impressed by how much time you have taken to become more knowledgeable about the FLDS. I challenge you to do the same for the LDS.
I have taken a statement from a baptist doctor I worked with in Alabama made about the Southern Baptists and applied it to mormons. It probably applies equally well to any homogenous group that can become too insular.
Baptists/mormons/catholics/democrats/etc are like manure. Pile them up high and they stink. Spread them around and they do a lot of good.
I would hope the same charity that is extended to the FLDS might be extended to the LDS as well. (Recognizing that not all frequenters of this blog have much charity for either group.) ;)
Lanon,
Thank you for clarifying that. I picked up what little I could share hodgepodge through various stories so your explanation is a lot clearer and easier to understand.
I believe the "ward map" is a tool for missionaries, and perhaps Bishops, in a particular ward, to identify families for missionary work. I don't believe it is a tool to segregate people or try to control them. One of the tools of the writers of Big Love is to show how the characters themselves often jump to (incorrect) conclusions about the assumptions of others or how other people view them.
The Henricksen family was worried that they had been outed, based on the gossip about Nikki, the incident with their daughter (that they wrongly attributed to bigotry against their family for the polygamy), and the labeling of their family as "inactive" on the ward map.
I think those are the dynamics of the show that are realistic. People really DO tend to judge situations, events and motivations of others from their own fears.
Obviously the very negative media stories, tales of subjugation, underage marriage, Lost Boys, etc., have gotten into the show. That would be unavoidable. The wives, and their interactions with each other are pretty realistic at times.
I have felt in the last two seasons that the bonding moments on the show between the women have not always gone the distance, that the writers would bring us 80% to 90%, then stop just short of those pure love moments that DO take place between wives. It's those moments of genuine love for each other that carry women through the times of disagreement or hurts or insecurity or other challenges.
The writers went the distance last night. The scene where Margie walks in to her baby's bedroom to find Barb rocking the baby was genuine and real and human. It finally touched on what plural wives feel for each and for their children when it works. Margie leans back against the door frame and smiles with fulfillment, watching as Barb rocks her baby with a look of pure love on her face for that child. It was beautiful.
That is what is in the heart of a woman who embraces a sister-wife into her life because she WANTS to.
Well, thanks. It appears Big Love may have devolved into a mock-the-FLDS, politically overtoned piece of propaganda. The government finally got its finger in the pie.
No thanks, I'll pass on this one.
Lanon...
Thank you so much....
It did make the hierarchal structure clearer/cleaner...but I hold to what I said earlier...I really don't think I would fare too well in such a homogenous neighborhood as Salt Lake, and probably other areas, seem to be....
I wouldn't be able to keep my mouth shut or my jaded nature in check...*smile*
I wouldn't fare well in ANY homogenous neighborhood...'cept maybe a retirement village made up of old sixties activists, gone gray....
MPB...I was struck by that moment with the baby, also...I have shared many children over the years with their bio mothers...and every once in awhile, those moments occur....but I have one particular friend and we have each shared a child...with each other.....and I love my friend with all my heart...and we both know that we love each other's sons as our own...literally....and I would do anything to protect that friendship we have....
twixter, It must have been hard to be amongst folks who have a similar faith, yet because of the choice to follow the Principle, you were amongst them, but not one of them....
I wonder if, through all this mess, the outcome is a decriminalization of polygamy, the mainstream LDS Church will reincorporate its' practice into the faith?
lanon said: "I would hope the same charity that is extended to the FLDS might be extended to the LDS as well. (Recognizing that not all frequenters of this blog have much charity for either group.) ;)"
I'm not so sure you want all the "charity" that's been dished out to us lately. You might out to think twice.
Cheese said: I'm not so sure you want all the "charity" that's been dished out to us lately. You might out to think twice.
Just to clarify again, in case it wasn't clear, I meant the charity of some of the bloggers. I have a real fear that the "charity" dished out lately could be dished to other non-deserving groups without some serious correction of CPS or other "well-intentioned" institutions.
Regina said:
I wonder if, through all this mess, the outcome is a decriminalization of polygamy, the mainstream LDS Church will reincorporate its' practice into the faith?
Well, your assumption in part one isn't going to happen in our lifetimes, so the question in part 2 is probably irrelevant.
Regina
Actually, if you think about it, once you say you've had a revelation from God, it's pretty hard to say, whoops, he changed him mind.
"I wonder if, through all this mess, the outcome is a decriminalization of polygamy, the mainstream LDS Church will reincorporate its' practice into the faith?"
Polygamy is not a crime in Africa, so you can say the first part has already happened. Legalized polygamy is pretty much a reality in the United States right now, as long as you are not a Mormon fundamentalist. It will become legal even for Mormon fundamentalists in the next few years in both the United States and Canada as the recent raids follow the same pattern as Lawrence vs. Texas.
Now for the LDS church it will make absolutely no difference. I do not see the LDS church ever going back to polygamy in mortality, or even considering it. The church has moved in a different direction, and will never return to the "principle." Look at it this way: missionary work or polygamy, choose one.
Parent Rights
Ron in Houston said...
"Actually, if you think about it, once you say you've had a revelation from God, it's pretty hard to say, whoops, he changed him mind."
I'm not speculating one way or the other on whether the LDS church will ever see a return to polygamy. However, the beauty of believing in modern day prophet and modern day revelation, is the ability to accept that God could say that today Polygamy is not acceptable, but tomorrow, due to a change in whatever circumstances, it might be. Principles remain the same but practices may change.
Obviously, we have seen a change in which worthy males could hold the priesthood. Other changes are possible.
This may be where the schism between the FLDS and LDS developed. As I understand it, they do not accept the change from practicing polygamy to not practicing polygamy as having been revealed to President Wilford Woodruff.
We, on the other hand, believe that God can and did reveal to Pres Woodruff that polygamy was no longer to be practiced. The principle of multiply and replensh the earth, and raise up a righteous generation unto the Lord still applies but the practice of how (polygamy vs no polygamy) has changed.
Another example of God's directions to his children changing would be dietary restrictions. We believe that Jewish dietary laws were given for a time when they were needed from both a physical and spiritual standpoint but are no longer applical to us. However, the need to care for our bodies has not changed, and therefore we have been given what the LDS call the "Word of Wisdom", ie, thou shalt not smoke, drink alcohol, tea, coffee, illegal drugs; thou shalt rest sufficiently, eat healthy foods in moderation, exercise, etc. (We tend to do better with the "thou shalts nots" then the "thou shalts" ;))
Other minor changes: Instead of two meetings on Sunday, Sunday School in the morning and Sacrament meeting in the afternoon with numerous meetings through out the week for the other auxiliaries, we now have a consolidated 3 hour meeting wwhich includes Sacrament meeting 1 hr 10 minutes, Sunday school - 40 minutes, and YM/YW/Relief Society/Priesthood meeting simultaneously for 50 minutes. (there are 10 minute breaks between these meetings and primary for the 3-12 year olds runs for simultaneously for 1 hr 40 minutes during the Sunday School and other auxiliary meetings. This 3 hour block is for spiritual instruction.
Mid-week activities are still held for the youth to do more social activites.
Formal missions calls used to be extended to married men and single men and could last for 3 to 5 years. Now 19 year old males are called to serve for 24 months and 21 year old females can be called for 18 months. Married men can only be called to serve for 6-24 months as long as they are accompanied by their wive.
The gospel is still taught but the practice of who does it and how long has changed.
Again, principles don't change. How that principle is practiced may.
What do Warren Buffet and Akon have in common? They're both polygamists. So you are right kare. There are polygamists all over this country. At my first job out of college there was a Hatian born associate who everyone knew had two wives. No one batted an eye. That was in Massachusetts.
BTW, I've never gotten a real good explanation for why it's legal in Texas to have two girlfriends but not two spiritual wives. Be advised Ron and all the naysayers, unless a good explanation for the above question can be brought before the supreme court, your ridiculous common-law bigamy statute will be tossed.
Hey Lanon, now that the medical news is out showing that coffee is actually good for you, and even alcohol in moderation can help the heart, are y'all going to revise your revelations again?
Heh. Makes sense that the FLDS don't abide by those kinds of sticklerish, trite rules making a pretense out of religiousness. They LIVE their religion, as in, STAYING APART from the godlessness, sequestering themselves physically to remain pure.
When I read the New Testament or even the OT, I think of the FLDS not the LDS and their token 2 years of missionary work as opposed to the lifetime of consecration that the FLDS give to their God.
Ziggy said:
"Be advised Ron and all the naysayers, unless a good explanation for the above question can be brought before the supreme court, your ridiculous common-law bigamy statute will be tossed."
Ahem, uh, yeah, Ziggy, I'll consider myself advised....
rericson said...
“I wonder if, through all this mess, the outcome is a decriminalization of polygamy, the mainstream LDS Church will reincorporate its' practice into the faith?”
The LDS church will never go back to polygamy. Polygamy is an unstable family in the modern world because the cost of raising children is so high that we now need two parents to successfully raise 4 children, unless the parents are extremely wealthy.
As for legalizing polygamy, that will never happen until they manage to distance themselves from problems like child brides. Ask yourself, “is there one polygamist group in Utah that doesn’t marry their children and cousins?” Some groups certainly do better than others, but every group has had problems in this area at some point and even if they haven’t that is the public perception, so until they distance polygamy from problems like that, it will never be legal.
Oh and the LDS church is so terrified that they gays will eat their marriages they will fight gay rights with all of their considerable wealth and ironically, the “religious freedom” that the Mormons once cried so loudly for will probably end up piggybacking on the gay rights movement.
Ron Said:
Actually, if you think about it, once you say you've had a revelation from God, it's pretty hard to say, whoops, he changed him mind.
Didn't the LDS church already do this. JS had a revelation from God to practice polygamy then Wilford Woodruff had the revelation from God that they were not to practice polygamy. I find it amusing that it came at the same time the government stepped in. But anyways who's to say that they couldn't have another revalation?
I see the other side, you see the "half emty", I see the "half full".
Because of people like Alby a group of humble people gets directed on a wrong way.
Because of the greed that Bill has (he does whatever he wants) he turns the back into his family, his OWN MOTHER, because he wants money and power. He is sort of a "Dan Fischer", geed, money, who knows what he will do with his wives..............
But the lost boy thing because he talked to a girl...........ROFL I mean, they do put comedy in it.
I mean, it could be positive for the FLDS, because its also showing how people are after the "polygamy" lifestyle and not the flds in general.
ohh and BTW, GOBAMA GOBAMA GOBAMA GOBAMA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I really hope this time USA will help "everyone" around, like he said black, white, gay, straight, he forgot monogamous, polygamous!!!!
"As for legalizing polygamy, that will never happen until they manage to distance themselves from problems like child brides. Ask yourself, “is there one polygamist group in Utah that doesn’t marry their children and cousins?” Some groups certainly do better than others, but every group has had problems in this area at some point and even if they haven’t that is the public perception, so until they distance polygamy from problems like that, it will never be legal."
Using this theory, monogamous relationship would be banned in many areas!
******
I enjoy watching Ron slowly and cautiously progress a bit further with each new comment in these discussions on religion.
Note: I'm only watching these comments!
poena: The LDS church will never go back to polygamy. Polygamy is an unstable family in the modern world because the cost of raising children is so high that we now need two parents to successfully raise 4 children, unless the parents are extremely wealthy.
Ever heard of evolution and survival of the fittest? That's how evolution works. The man who's the wealthiest or strongest gets the most wives and has the most children. All the other poor saps share prostitutes or die off early. It's been happening for eons and it's still happening right now to an extent.
ztg,
Actually, Darwin said that survival goes to the best at adapting to it's environment rather than fittest or strongest. But you do have a point, the world has designed itself to go against polygamy, and only the most faithful or one's who believe God will help them, will prevail. Therefore selecting out for faithfulness.
kbp said...
“Using this theory, monogamous relationship would be banned in many areas!”
I am not talking about what should or should not happen. I am simply expressing my opinion, which is that the legalization of polygamy has been severely retarded by “prophets” marrying children and telling people that it is ok to marry their cousins. I am not an expert, but it is my understanding that every major polygamous community deals with these problems. You can argue over causation vs. correlation but until this perception is changed it will be very difficult to legalize polygamy.
ztgstmv said...
“Ever heard of evolution and survival of the fittest? That's how evolution works. The man who's the wealthiest or strongest gets the most wives and has the most children.
First off, evolution favors neither strength nor wealth. Evolution favors reproduction. Obviously survival is a part of that but this is an entirely different conversation. (btw “Idiocracy” is a hilarious movie about this phenomenon)
If you want to argue that we should go back to some type of tribal society were might equals right you’re welcome to do so, but I was talking about the morality of the situation. Sure there are some men in polygamous communities that make enough to support his 20 wives and his 75 children, but they are a rare exception. In most cases all the wives are claiming to be single parents and collecting food stamps, Medicaid, ect… Obviously a society that encourages this type of parasitic behavior can not flourish.
kbp
What??? I respect religion, well, at least to a point. Shoot, I live in a state where you can't buy wine on Sunday until noon. (The interesting part is the little bottles of "cooking wine" are acceptable.)
I've got a deal for all the Baptists in Texas. You let me buy wine on Sunday morning and I promise not to show up drunk at your church.
Sounds fair, huh?
And I ask you something... I mean... really.... At least SOMEONE is using the stamp money and not that the politics are stealing it. I mean the "money" is for the people and not for its leaders right? I mean, where do you think the "printed" money came from, FROM YOUR RETIREMENT MONEY. Will it help everyone because of the crisis? Nope, it wont, only the rich people to get richer and the poor people will have to see what they do to pay all their morgages, debt etc.. So I think its FAIR for the people who need the money to have it. If its there and nobody uses it, then why say FLDS are this and that because they use it. (not that i say that they do).
Poena
Evolution is a tricky thing....
For some reason it appears that wealthy men give women more orgasms.
Those evolutionary adaptations can be quite interesting things.
Maayan said...
“ So I think its FAIR for the people who need the money to have it.”
Wow, just wow. I think it is only fair that every girl have a pony.
Poena Abstergo
Wow, just wow. I think it is only fair that every girl have a pony.
Well, if you prefear people stealing your taxes than using it for food I cant try to convince you for your "reich mentality". I AM convinced that the tax money is for the people, not for the thiefs.
If you always wanted a Pony and they didnt give it to you and you have that trauma, its not my fault.
Amazing "Big Love" gives people such a rush, even Brooke evidently.
Mormons are so adamant about free exercise of beleif. Pursuit of happiness, live and let live, yet LDS and FLDS continually are on the side of taking others beleifs away from them.
Gay rights are just as legal as the rights your talking about in this topic.
Yet Utah is one of the biggest contributors to blocking passage of gay rights.
Seems gay people getting married is a threat to you.
Ron in Houston said...
"Evolution is a tricky thing....
For some reason it appears that wealthy men give women more orgasms."
Maybe I should switch to a Business major….
Maayan
Taxes are part of the 16th amendment of the constitution ratified by the states in 1913.
You may not like them or the way they are spent, but the constitution makes them legal and government can spend your tax money anyway Congress sees fit.
PA
I'm a guy and I wanted a pony when I was young.
*snif* *snif* I was such a deprived child.....
So Harley, you are telling me its constitutional for your congressman and his friends to make fantasy business and steal the money?
You say this is "legal"? you say its more legal than the people of your country using it for the peoples purpose?
Im not saying that they should not charge taxes, of course goverments have to charge them, but also use the money in "the country" and not "their pockets".
Ron
You still live in texas, you can get a pony, you are in the "rednecks" land!!!!
Please dont cry!!!
Mayaan,
No, of course its not legal to steal taxpayer money for any reason. But Our congressman and President are elected. You vote for a congressman you beleive will spend your money wisely. To often it isn't spent the way it should. But Congress decides how the money will be spent.
poena: Sure there are some men in polygamous communities that make enough to support his 20 wives and his 75 children, but they are a rare exception. In most cases all the wives are claiming to be single parents and collecting food stamps, Medicaid, ect… Obviously a society that encourages this type of parasitic behavior can not flourish.
I have a problem with this analysis. It appears to me that the men in the FLDS with the largest number of wives (Nielson, Jeffs) also have the most income and evidently can support them. That takes care of a significant number of women and their children, if you ask me. Point in favor of my thesis that "fitness" (in this case mental prowess in the ability to adapt to this economy and make lots of money) promotes survival.
Next you throw out the "Idiocracy" thesis, which also has merit, but at a macro level. In this case, survival is in favor of the parasites but only as long as the larger body from which they feed survives. Obviously the society of the futuristic "Idiocracy" is unsustainable (the very sustainability of it in the movie is what made it all so comical). How does that relate to the FLDS? Foodstamps you say. Yes you have a point. But I think the FLDS themselves are and were conscious of this way as being unworkable in the long term, so they apparently were and are moving more toward rural living and living off the land. So while we in larger society become ever more dependent on "bleeding the beast" in our own ways, the FLDS are trying to wean themselves off the beast, it appears.
And if you want to look at things objectively you have a choice between supporting native-born Americans like the FLDS who produce an able-bodied, skilled workforce or supporting Mexicans. You have a choice what you want the future of America to look like (cuz my demographic sure ain't breeding at replacement levels). Choose which breeding stock you want to support with foodstamps. I'll gladly support the FLDS with my tax dollars until they can find their own salvation. Thanks very much.
And if you want to look at things objectively you have a choice between supporting native-born Americans like the FLDS who produce an able-bodied, skilled workforce or supporting Mexicans.
***************************
The Only Native Born people who were on the land Ztg, were Indians!
They had thier land taken from them by force from outsiders (Europeans)
America is made up of immigrants, you idioit! You think your ancestors were here before the Native Indains?
Ztg, once again, your such a racist asshole!! Mexicans, Blacks, Asians, live and work in America, Get used to it!!! And all colors and races have talent, and I've never seen anyone work as hard, or as long in pissy paid jobs as mexicans.
Flds make Lots of money, becuase they don't pay their workforce (men and children) much either.
The only ones wealthy are the prophet and bishops.
ztgstmv said...
“It appears to me that the men in the FLDS with the largest number of wives (Nielson, Jeffs) also have the most income and evidently can support them.”
Well Nielson is one of the rare exceptions that actually does make enough to live of his own income although I suspect that his wives still claim food stamps ect… simply because they can. Jeffs on the other hand is just a parasite living on a parasite. Warren has always lived off the people. But if you go back to my original point, for every 1 man like Nielson, there are 10 that cannot afford healthcare, college, ect…
ztgstmv said...
“In this case, survival is in favor of the parasites but only as long as the larger body from which they feed survives.”
Fortunately for the FLDS the “beast” they are “bleeding” is quite large and will probably never be killed by them because they simply cannot get to large without self-destructing.
ztgstmv said...
“But I think the FLDS themselves are and were conscious of this way as being unworkable in the long term, so they apparently were and are moving more toward rural living and living off the land.”
This is laughable at best. The FLDS are about as independent as I am. They have no more farms per capita than any other town their size and their society would be just as bad off if the economy they feed on failed. They depend on oil, cars, ect… just as much as the rest of us if not more. In fact, outside of Nielson’s company, I suspect that the FLDS’s collective income is entirely dependent on the construction market of the “outside” world.
Poena
I don't know which is greater, Ziggy's ignorance, Ziggy's racism, or Ziggy's ability to spout bullshit.
If you don't engage him, pretty soon his Mommy will tell him it's time to get off the computer and he'll disappear for some time.
Ziggy, Mommy dearest says its time to get off the computer and study your Mein Kampf for the day.
Harley
This time I agree with you.
Zig is such a racist!!!
Hey you, im not mexican, but I live here and these people are really kind. Most things you have in your house is MADE IN MEXICO BY MEXICANS. So better not touch it, you may get something on your skin!!
and BTW, most mexicans who are there are "ILEGAL" so they dont get stamps you bigot!!
Ziggy, stop reading Nietzche and company. Its not worth it, your mind is full of crap.
Maayan Said:
and BTW, most mexicans who are there are "ILEGAL" so they dont get stamps you bigot!!
See that statement there is why alot of individuals may be racist towards Mexicans. They are here illegally and running drug rings and crime goes up. At least that is the experience where I live. I am not racist and I have no problem with anyone wanting to make a better life for themselves, but do it legally and learn the language of the land.
Overland
the ones that are running the drug business have a visa!!! The "ilegal" ones are the ones who dont have a job here so they "think" that the american dream is their only hope, of course that is until they realize that tacos are better than having mcdonalds or burger king every day of their lifes.
You have to live in these countries to understand the poberty these people live in. I mean, poor people in the USA have a television in their houses, some poor people here dont even know television exists.
But then again, you would have to live here and do social work to understand it. And worse of all is that USA loves the "ilegal" mexicans. I have driven through reynosa to mcallen, and from nuevo laredo to laredo, and I have seen people "swimming" the rio bravo, and I have NEVER seen a customs person or a cop there!!!
So they do sell you the "idea" that there is a wall etc... but there really is NOTHING
I agree that they should do it legaly, but they did buy the idea that "the american dream" exists. I think we all do until we grow up and see that even USA has a corrupt goverment and then count from there all the way down to its people.
BTW, most mexicans who are there are "ILEGAL" so they dont get stamps you bigot!!
Yes....but they take up services (e.g. medicare, schools) like there's no tomorrow. In fact it's becoming a real issue in California, causing the state to go broke. Don't ask me, ask Bob Brinker, or any other commentator. It all boils down to what kind of country do you want to live in. A country with peaceful Mormons and Amish or a country looking like Ciudad Juarez. This isn't racism it's reality. Demographic trends are a reality.
The only populations that are growing in this country are Mormons and Mexicans. Call me alarmist, but we have to think about the future and what kind of world our children will live in.
Maayan your right I do not live there and I do not have an understanding of the American Dream, all I can tell you is my experience where I live. Yes the drug dealers here that happen to be Mexican are illegals and usually go my several different names. I too am not from this country and I had to do it legally to be here. Do I think all Mexicans are bad - absolutely not. But my experience for where I live the ones who do come chasing the American dream and do not go through the proper channels and the ones that do cause the crime. BTW I am not a racist or a bigot!
". Don't ask me, ask Bob Brinker, or any other commentator."
Really? So NOW you believe the BS that the media or ANY OTHER COMMENTATOR says?
Mexicans ARE COMING BACK, because they have no jobs, and in your country NOBODY wants to do the job these people do.
You see here we can have 2 maids in our house for 150USD per week, they earn more there, but now they are coming back. My question is WHO WANTS TO BE A MAID THERE?
And please, be "smart" enough to NOT CONFUSE religion with nationality.
and let me finish this by saying that America needs the rest of us, I mean, what would happen if we wouldnt go there on our vacations and spend our money there? If our people wouldnt be there?
Rent the movie "A day without mexicans" ROFL!!!
Overland,
I didnt say you where one.
and the american dream does not exist. But its different for the poor people here.
I was raised in Colombia south america. lots of people say ohh yes, drug, guerrilla, bla bla bla, and yes, there is a guerilla, and yes, there are drug dealers and NO COLOMBIA IS NOT LIKE HOLLYWOOD AND CNN show it.
Its such a lovely place, I can tell you people go there and NEVER want to leave. (another example of how media can destroy something)
I mean I NEVER saw a place like the movie mr and mrs smith showed ROFL. And still they write COLOMBIA at the first schen, its incredible how they can destroy something and convince people that Colombia is how they say it is!!
Ok, so when I went to college it was from the Jesuits, (they are so cool the rabbi could give us religion class there so we didnt have to take christology), and so there was some social work to be done. I wanted to go but the dean didnt let me, he said that like I was born in Israel and had foreign last names, they would random me in a second, so I couldnt go there. It was in San Pablo, a conflict area in Colombia. So some friends went there, and when they came back they where transformed (kind of when you read nitzche and kant in high school), and they said it was like this. The guerrilla have the most incredible technology in the jungle, satelites etc.. they have lots of money, all from the drug dealing. So they go to these very very poor houses, where mom and dad have NO SEXUAL education at all, have 20 children per home and cant even feed them, besides they live in a 1 square meter home. So when someone comes and offers them money, and a security, and food, and tell them all they have to do is "fight" for their cause, well..... they fight for that cause, they fight for the guerilla in exchange of food, clothing, and a roof for their families.
So that is the problem in Colombia, people are so poor and have so many problems because of it, that when someone offers them something they think its better, the guerilla is their solution.
In mexico there is no violent guerilla (yet), BUT there is the "american dream", they think if they go to USA ilegaly, their lifes will get better.
How will this end? I dont know, people in venezuela thought Chavez would change things and they got a crazy guy, argentina ROFL with the "kretina" president, cuba wanted a change and now they pray for.......(i dont know what they pray for because many have no idea how it is like out here), and we could go on and on and on.
So when will there stop being Drug dealers, when they legalize the drug and stop making such a big deal out of it. just like cigarrets and alcohol.........
What I do think is that all the problem here is tolerance and educational. If goverments started educating their poor people, maybe, just maybe a change will come, if not, things will continue to be the way they are, and I dont think the strong country world leaders really want this to change, I dont think USA doesnt want the ilegal people in their country, I dont think colombia doesnt want a guerilla, I dont think mexico wants to stop the drug dealing.......Cause its always about money right? Just like Texas and the FLDS..........
OMG all this is wayyyyyyy to sad...
lets better go back to Big Love...
Maayan,
I like the documentary "Killing Pablo", about Pablo Escobar. The one thing that struck me was all the money and government intervention in getting that guy, that nothing worked until the regular people (los pepes) got involved. Plus, they used his family as bait. That's got to be the way to deal with things, the regular people, rather than giving more power to the government.
WC
Pablo Excobar was really nice with the "people". He made schools for them, hospitals, built houses etc.. he did for the poor what the goverment didnt do for them. Pablo escobar was also in the congress, funny thing huh?
Los pepes, are now the paramillitars, they are militars who didnt want to respect the UN so they decided to be called pepes. (now they have a great deal of the drug dealing also). They are really violent. They do in other states what the guerilla does to the people in the states they are.
So you see, "los pepes" where really the goverment in disguise. But you saw what they really wanted you to see in a documentary, you see.
I remember Pablo had a war with the goverment (cause he didnt give the goverment what they wanted), so the innocent people where involved. We couldnt go out of our houses, it was dangerous. No mall, no movies, no nothing, just friends houses and that was it. I know the person who made the jail where Pablo escaped, so corrupt. They where all payed, it was all a scam.
As I said before, nothing is what they want us to see it like.
I studied to be a journalist, got to know a lot of things, but I am not a good liar, I dont like following the "ideals" of the political media, and I do want to live lol.
Maayan
You go. Don't let those Gabacho spout their crap.
Tell them "no seas pendejo."
(Sorry I've used up just about all my hispanic slang in one comment....)
I know Ron
I would if I didnt have my 3 kids.
Believe me, I would.
Besides Ron, I got now my own medicine, I sorta live on a Whisteria Lane ROFL
This is funny, the first time I told my hubby "no seas pendejo" he got so mad, you see, here in Mexico the "pendejo" word is like an insult, In colombia the "pendejo" word is like saying "duh".
So be careful who you say pendejo to from now on!!
Although I can teach you new ones ;)
Why is it that we allways learn the bad words of a language first?
The reason Mexicans come here is because of the suppression in Mexico. They are like anyone else, looking for a better life for their children and family.
Ztg, you wouldnt have fruit on your table or vegatables in your stomach if it weren't for mexican workers!
Would you work for less than minimm wage? HELL NO!!! But they are willing because its better than living in Mexico where the country is run by dictators!!
Oh this sounds familiar, Flds is run by a dictator to! The Chief gets all the Money, the indians get whats left over!
Ztg, you are a damned RACIST!!! When this country was very young, you had people from many countries coming here, working for peanuts to start a new life. So, you want American kept ONLY for white, english speaking people Ztg? Well Tough! That aint gonna happen!
Christ. Get me out of here...
Next Ztg, you going to demonize black people to?
Put your HOOD back on, and go eat supper Ztg!
I'd rather have the FLDS pick my vegetables. I hear they provide very cheap labor. :)
(And I don't have to worry about them running drugs through my neighborhood)
Ztg
FLDS does NOTHING for anyone else, so you wouldn't get any vegetables.
They aren't a sharing community, remember.
Go live with them Ztg, see how far you get. But, stop damning other races because of your insecurities.
Ziggy said:
(And I don't have to worry about them running drugs through my neighborhood)
Geez, can you dig your racist ass into a deeper hole?
Ziggy, Mommy said it's time to get off the computer and study your Mein Kampf for today....
Maayan said:
Why is it that we always learn the bad words of a language first?
I think because we tend to remember them better than the more mundane words. Those words are odd and have a certain shock value.
My wife has taught me a lot of Vietnamese. However, it's always easy to remember words like "fart" or "vomit" or things like that.
Geez, you would think that the day after Martin Luther King, Jr. Day and on the day we celebrate the inauguration of our first non-white president you could put the racism on pause for a moment. I am not sure who exactly you think you’re doing a favor for here. In fact, as ignorant as the FLDS are, I don’t even think they would care for your comments.
z,
"A country with peaceful Mormons..."
LOL! Oh my heavens! LOL!
You haven't taken a single look at the Mormon history have you?
hahahahahaha
Ron interprets everything he hears as "racist." If you ask me that's a sign of insecurity. The discussion is about illegal immigration which is closely related to drug and gang violence. Just because I favor Americans to pick the vegetables and do the construction work doesn't mean I'm a "racist." Just because I want the border clammed up tight doesn't mean I'm a racist.
I guess peace, safety, and prosperity is too much to ask for nowadays.
Big Love gets some things right, and some things wrong. They apparently don't have someone reading the scripts who is LDS or a Mormon Fundamentalist because of the errors throughout on phraseology, beliefs, culture, etc.
It seems to like to play to prejudices on both sides, while showing the main characters to be pretty ignorant of their own beliefs. I take that back, very ignorant of their beliefs. For the first while, I thought that maybe the writers, directors, and producer wanted to get things right. But, I believe I heard that Tom Hanks is against the Mormon Fundamentalists and so that apparently doesn't seem to be the case. We'll see how things twist and turn in the future.
I believe the show has done quite a bit of good overall, however it has either continued or created ignorant stereotypes as well. I will continue to watch it, but I advise those not in the know to take what you see with a grain of salt.
rericson, the show somewhat fairly represents some of the dynamics of living polygynously. My own life has a number of similarities, though we don't live in several houses but one larger house. In the middle of suburbia. And, our neighbors don't have a clue, nor have they in previous neighborhoods we have lived in.
rericson said:
"I wonder if, through all this mess, the outcome is a decriminalization of polygamy, the mainstream LDS Church will reincorporate its' practice into the faith?"
Response: I could be charitable and say "sure, there is a possibility". However, from my 20 years of researching the issues, policies, and trends, after being a believing member of the LDS Church from birth, I would say that the Ku Klux Klan would invite Blacks to be members of its association before the LDS Church would invite Mormon Fundamentalists to be members without renouncing their beliefs.
Poena Abstergo said...
> kbp said...
> “Using this theory, monogamous relationship would be banned in many areas!”
> I am not talking about what should or should not happen. I am simply expressing my opinion, which is that the legalization of polygamy has been severely retarded by “prophets” marrying children and telling people that it is ok to marry their cousins.
Response: Interesting, isn't it? What used to occur throughout the Bible, as well as in America until rather recently - that is, that marriage occurs after puberty, was legal between the ages of 12 and 14, and that marriage of first cousins or further removed - has become outlawed and considered by many to be outrageous behavior.
Tell us, what happens when the "law" says that no one can get married until the age of 25? 30? 35? What happens when the "law" says that a couple can only have ONE child? Just keep on doing whatever the "law" says since it is, by the way, the "Law"? Are all laws moral? Should all be followed? Should we all "go to the back of the bus"? Drink from the designated drinking fountains? Eat at the back of the restaurant? If some of us practice "civil disobedience", are we wrong for doing so, and be arrested?
> I am not an expert, but it is my understanding that every major polygamous community deals with these problems.
Response: Yes, by your statement above, you have clarified you are not an expert. Only the formerly largest polygamous community "deals with these problems". And, as per public pronouncement, they don't deal with it anymore.
Perhaps it would be a good idea to get informed before trying to "educate" others about beliefs and religions of others.
> You can argue over causation vs. correlation but until this perception is changed it will be very difficult to legalize polygamy.
Response: Okay. We won't hold our breath then.
harley said...
> Amazing "Big Love" gives people such a rush, even Brooke evidently.
Response: You've been told 50,000,000 times to not exaggerate!
> Mormons are so adamant about free exercise of beleif. Pursuit of happiness, live and let live, yet LDS and FLDS continually are on the side of taking others beleifs away from them.
Response: They are? Their "beliefs"?
Perhaps you should think that statement through and perhaps rewrite it.
> Gay rights are just as legal as the rights your talking about in this topic.
Response: They are? Gays have far more rights than Mormon Fundamentalists. Compare the laws directed at each of them.
Most of us Fundamentalists believe in the live and let live philosophy. Too bad that so many liberals don't practice the same tolerance for others beliefs and practices.
> Yet Utah is one of the biggest contributors to blocking passage of gay rights.
Response: So you have gone from the LDS to the LDS and FLDS, and now to the whole State of Utah. Have you ever considered your use of generalizations?
"All indians walk in a straight line. At least the one I saw did".
> Seems gay people getting married is a threat to you.
Response: It is not a threat to me at all, or to most Mormon Fundamentalists. It is the LDS Church who is pushing the issue, and funding it, with tithing dollars.
harley said...
>ztg:
> And if you want to look at things objectively you have a choice between supporting native-born Americans like the FLDS who produce an able-bodied, skilled workforce or supporting Mexicans.
***************************
> The Only Native Born people who were on the land Ztg, were Indians!
Response: Context, harley, context. Illegal immigrants vs. native born Americans.
> They had thier land taken from them by force from outsiders (Europeans)
Response: And the American Indians took their land by force from their predecessors, who took it by force from their predecessors.
> America is made up of immigrants, you idioit! You think your ancestors were here before the Native Indains?
Ztg, once again, your such a racist asshole!!
Response: And you are showing yourself to be ignorant. You appear to be completely missing the point! A hint: demographics of caucasians/europeans who came to and settled America and developed its own City/State government.
>Mexicans, Blacks, Asians, live and work in America, Get used to it!!! And all colors and races have talent, and I've never seen anyone work as hard, or as long in pissy paid jobs as mexicans.
> Flds make Lots of money, becuase they don't pay their workforce (men and children) much either.
The only ones wealthy are the prophet and bishops.
Response: FLDS or their leaders? Above you say FLDS, and then you turn around below and say the leaders.
All work - men, women, and children - and the monies earned are pooled. Then, distributed. To each according to need. At least that is what is taught, and practiced more or less.
Do you really like using the words "always", "every", "all", "never", etc.?
"Response: Interesting, isn't it? What used to occur throughout the Bible, as well as in America until rather recently - that is, that marriage occurs after puberty, was legal between the ages of 12 and 14, and that marriage of first cousins or further removed - has become outlawed and considered by many to be outrageous behavior."
Actually, marriages in America commonly took place at or after the age of 20 for women and 23 for men just 100 years ago. The contention that it was "legal" is meaningless since it was far from a common or accepted practice. It was also "legal" to own slaves in both biblical and early American times -- doesn't mean that the change to slavery being "illegal" isn't a good one...
Poena Abstergo said...
> But if you go back to my original point, for every 1 man like Nielson, there are 10 that cannot afford healthcare, college, ect…
Response: You mean among the FLDS, or Mormon Fundamentalists in general?
In either event, you don't have a clue what you are talking about. Reverse those ratios, and you'd be more correct.
> ztgstmv said...
“In this case, survival is in favor of the parasites but only as long as the larger body from which they feed survives.”
Fortunately for the FLDS the “beast” they are “bleeding” is quite large and will probably never be killed by them because they simply cannot get to large without self-destructing.
Response: Yes, the beast they are bleeding is quite large, and will certainly fail before they will. They (your society) is self destructing right before everyone's eyes as we write! And, they deserve it. They (i.e. your soceity) is the cause of Mormon Fundamentalist's problems, and deserve to pay for being essentially "forcing" the FLDS and others into "hiding".
Poena said: "In fact, as ignorant as the FLDS are,....."
You tell us, Poena! In fact, as ignorant as we are, just how ignorant are we?
Z
if you want them out of your neighborhood stop buying junk, I mean they would stop producing it if ppl like you would stop consuming it!!!
I live in Mexico and I dont have them in my neighborhood.
CHansen1118, are you going to share with the whole class?
"bullshit imitates grass"
For once, I agree with Pliggy.
Well, it's happened before, but don't tell anyone. It's not good for either his street cred or mine.
rericson said...
I wonder if, through all this mess, the outcome is a decriminalization of polygamy, the mainstream LDS Church will reincorporate its' practice into the faith?
You have asked THE question as it relates to the LDS church and polygamy. I think the answer is yes. Anybody who has ever read official declaration 1 aka the first manifesto could tell you that it is about following the law of the land.
http://scriptures.lds.org/od/1
It is not the revelation itself but exactly what it claims to be, an official declaration from the church. Anybody who has studied the history could tell you that it was about the Lord protecting the church for his own purposes.
Plural marriage has never been disavowed by us. My own grandfather is sealed to two women for time and all eternity. Technically that makes him a polygamist. Just because the first died before the second came along makes no difference to the meaning. We are a people that believe in eternal families.
I guess what I'm saying is that we do practice plural marriage. We just have not been permitted by the Lord to enter into plural marriage on this plain of existance AT THIS TIME.
That could change at any time. What better time than if it were legal?
And what a test of faithfulness that would be for so many...LOL
Got this from a friend
thought it would be nice to share
http://www.youtube.com/swf/l.swf?swf=http%3A//s.ytimg.com/yt/swf/cps-vfl73532.swf&video_id=PScUdYTO0UM&rel=1&eurl=http%3A//bl139w.blu139.mail.live.com/mail/Inbo
cheese said...
>CHansen1118, are you going to share with the whole class?
Response: Share what? What are you referring to? Which post?
cheese said...
“You tell us, Poena! In fact, as ignorant as we are, just how ignorant are we?”
You don’t need me to spell it out for you Cheese. Why don’t you tell me how many people have gone off to college, graduated, and then returned to better their community in the last eight years. Why don’t you give a rational justification for just one of their beliefs other than “God told his one special someone that this is what he wanted.”
ig⋅no⋅rant [ig-ner-uhnt] (dictionary.com)
–adjective
1. lacking in knowledge or training; unlearned: an ignorant man.
2. lacking knowledge or information as to a particular subject or fact: ignorant of quantum physics.
3. uninformed; unaware.
I guess you just told it to me straight! WOW! Why do I just feel so stupid and insignificant right now?
Some people,Poena, use their brain to think with and some use it as a warehouse to store facts in! I'm so thankful for a didactic highbrow such as yourself to keep me going in the right direction!!
Poena said: "You don’t need me to spell it out for you Cheese. Why don’t you tell me how many people have gone off to college, graduated, and then returned to better their community in the last eight years."
I've got one better, What have YOU done to BETTER your community? College or no! Who said that the only way to better your community is to go to college?
Poena that was ridiculous. I mean look at Bush and company. Phds and doctorates to mess up the world.
cheese said...
"Some people,Poena, use their brain to think with and some use it as a warehouse to store facts in! I'm so thankful for a didactic highbrow such as yourself to keep me going in the right direction!!"
Yeah your right, the FLDS are a bunch of free-thinkers who don't need a "prophet" to tell them what to do with their lives and are actively studying the world and reading the great books. What a load of crap. They don't read anything thats not firmly lodged onto the "approved" list.
cheese said...
"I've got one better, What have YOU done to BETTER your community? College or no! Who said that the only way to better your community is to go to college?"
My point was that if you can point to someone from that community who has gone to college in the last eight years they probably didn't return to be one of the sheeple. When was the last time you drove through Hildale/Colorado City. I doubt you could find a community in the US that is growing that fast and shows so little improvement. The few things added in the last 5 years are all hideous "addons" or sheet metal fences. Two thumbs up right...
Maayan said...
"Poena that was ridiculous. I mean look at Bush and company. Phds and doctorates to mess up the world."
The world is certainly not perfect and obviously educated people are still subject to all the ills that define humanity. But you cannot completely stop all formal education after highschool and then get your feelings hurt when people think you're stupid. Right now the FLDS are becoming more and more dependent on the outside world because they are not producing the professionals needed to surivive in a modern world. When was the last time the produced an architect, engineer, accountant, doctor, lawyer, ect... Right now they may be able to get by with the people they educated in the 80's and 90's but how long can one or two professionals serve an entire community. We are allready seeing their clinics send people away due to lack of trained/certified professionals and it is only going to get worse.
poena imitates intelligence
or; to wipe off pain by insinuation of others' "evil"
Pliggy said...
“poena imitates intelligence
or; to wipe off pain by insinuation of others' "evil"”
I never insinuated anyone’s “evil.” I have said and will say again that the barbaric and stupid practices advocated by the FLDS are evil. That’s not an insinuation its an opinion, an opinion I have tried to back up with observations about the FLDS.
And just for sport, I will do so again.
1. Any parent who teaches their child to memorize “facts” about the after life and never question them is immoral and evil.
2. Any parent who rejects their child when they accidently use their brain and come to a different conclusion than their parents is immoral and evil.
3. Any religious leader that preachers that his congregation is superior to the rest of the world and that a supreme being is going to punish the rest of the world for being born in the wrong place is immoral and evil.
4. Any religious leader that preaches racism, sexism, slavery, or any of the other absurdities from the bible is immoral and evil.
5. Anyone who believes that there is a divine being, who has the ability to create the entire universe, has create mankind and gave us a set of rules to live by or we will go to hell is immoral, evil and extremely stupid.
6. Anyone who believes that they can justify an old man marrying a child is beyond evil. It is bad enough when two children take on the role of adults before their brains are fully developed, but when I see adults, who should know better, using fears like death, hell, and damnation to force a child to enter into a marriage or sexual relationship, it makes me wish there was a hell for them to go to.
7 Pick any other aspect of the current “Warren” doctrine and I would bet you money that it is either immoral and evil, or it is “good” only for the “in-group.”
"or; to wipe off pain by insinuation of others' "evil""
You're projecting again, Pliggy. Several times now you've taken something someone else has said and tried to twist and exaggerate it into something else.
Poena
Apparently the FLDS love Shakespeare
"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers."
They seem totally reliant on non-FLDS to represent them. What does that tell us?
Well, training someone to think independently and not be told what to think by some bishop or prophet naturally threatens the order.
So, the way to control the masses is to first kill off all the lawyers.
Absurdo, I suggest you look up the word "insinuate"
And by all means, silly Rebecka, I AM projecting my observations. If you cannot tell that Absurdo proved my point precisely, it is not I who am "twisting".
poena said: "We are allready seeing their clinics send people away due to lack of trained/certified professionals and it is only going to get worse."
Oh is that why they are sending them away? A couple of posts back it was touted that they were sending them away because they were prejudiced. Why don't you let our lack of trained professionals be our problem? Why do you need to have a dog in the fight? Or are you just trying to dig up something, anything to snivel about?
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