Church of Lies
It is looking like a busy week for Flora Jessop.
On Wednesday, she is being deposed in Arizona.
On Tuesday, her book ''Church of Lies'' was due to be released today.
You can order the book on Amazon but I have not yet seen it in book stores. I went searching around, however, and found the book index, chapter list and first chapter on line at the publisher's Web site.
The first chapter, titled 'The End of Innocence,' starts off with a description of her baptism at age 8 and then quickly moves into uncomfortable territory as Flora describes how her father began molesting her that same year. Flora is gut-wrenchingly graphic as she describes what happened.
Why didn't she cry out for help? Flora blames the Keep Sweet mantra of the community. Here is an excerpt:
'' 'Keep Sweet' is the sacred song of the church, preached with relentless passion,'' Flora writes. ''It covers a multitude of sins. It means be modest and pure; obey your parents; obey your husband. But to me and thousands of other abused kids, keep sweet meant keep silent as your father is molesting you. Say nothing as your mom or dad beats you with their fists, a belt, a steel pipe.''
The chapters listed on the Jossey-Bass Web site include: Little Runaway, No One's Property, Ruby, Rescuing the Fawns, Laurene and Fighting On.
The index to the book is also online, and that gave me an even better idea of the subject matter that the book will cover.
Here is a sampling:
People
Germaine Abraham-Leveen
Jenny Larsen
Dan Barlow
Grandma Bertha
Jay Beswick
Linda Binder
Winston Blackmore
Fawn Broadbent
Jesus Christ
Don & Katie Cox
Bob Curran
Rowenna Erickson
Jeffrey Holland
Joni Holm
Warren Jeffs
27 Jessops, including herself
Jon Krakauer
Mary Magdalene
Major (her horse)
Brian David Mitchell
Jim Osman
Ron Parker (Wonder if that is supposed to be Rod Parker?)
Hester Prynne
John Quinones
Sam Roundy
Mark Shurtleff
Elizabeth Smart
Allen Steed
Rosita Swinton (page 279)
Linda Walker
Mike Watkiss
Les Zitting
Topics:
Babyland
Barbiturates
Blood atonement
Child abuse
Cocaine
Denny's restaurant
Drugs (pages 122-125, 132, 135, 139, 141, 157, 236, 281)
Fumerase deficiency
God Squad (almost as many mentions as drugs)
Jealousy
Lost Boys
Midwest Italian Mafia
Ovulation tests
Penthouse magazine
Poofers
Ruby Ridge
Unconditional love
Utah Supreme Court
Welfare fraud
Flora's playlist:
Air Supply
Pat Benetar
Best of the Beach Boys
Black Sabbath
Go-Go's
Bob Seger
Surfin' USA (Beach Boys)
Turn the Page
Phoenix men's clubs:
Centerfolds
Mr. Lucky's
Tiffany's Cabaret
Other places:
Arizona
Binion's Horseshoe Casino
British Columbia
California
Canaan Mountain
Coral Pink Sand Dunes
Death Highway
Eldorado
Eudora, Kansas
Fredonia
Independence, Missouri
Ivins, Utah
Jacob Lake, Arizona (very pretty place! Hopefully, nothing bad went on there . . . )
Kansas City, Miss.
Little Cottonwood Canyon
Mexico
Pacific Beach, Calif.
Springfield, Miss
Tonopah, Ariz.
Zion National Park
On Wednesday, she is being deposed in Arizona.
On Tuesday, her book ''Church of Lies'' was due to be released today.
You can order the book on Amazon but I have not yet seen it in book stores. I went searching around, however, and found the book index, chapter list and first chapter on line at the publisher's Web site.
The first chapter, titled 'The End of Innocence,' starts off with a description of her baptism at age 8 and then quickly moves into uncomfortable territory as Flora describes how her father began molesting her that same year. Flora is gut-wrenchingly graphic as she describes what happened.
Why didn't she cry out for help? Flora blames the Keep Sweet mantra of the community. Here is an excerpt:
'' 'Keep Sweet' is the sacred song of the church, preached with relentless passion,'' Flora writes. ''It covers a multitude of sins. It means be modest and pure; obey your parents; obey your husband. But to me and thousands of other abused kids, keep sweet meant keep silent as your father is molesting you. Say nothing as your mom or dad beats you with their fists, a belt, a steel pipe.''
The chapters listed on the Jossey-Bass Web site include: Little Runaway, No One's Property, Ruby, Rescuing the Fawns, Laurene and Fighting On.
The index to the book is also online, and that gave me an even better idea of the subject matter that the book will cover.
Here is a sampling:
People
Germaine Abraham-Leveen
Jenny Larsen
Dan Barlow
Grandma Bertha
Jay Beswick
Linda Binder
Winston Blackmore
Fawn Broadbent
Jesus Christ
Don & Katie Cox
Bob Curran
Rowenna Erickson
Jeffrey Holland
Joni Holm
Warren Jeffs
27 Jessops, including herself
Jon Krakauer
Mary Magdalene
Major (her horse)
Brian David Mitchell
Jim Osman
Ron Parker (Wonder if that is supposed to be Rod Parker?)
Hester Prynne
John Quinones
Sam Roundy
Mark Shurtleff
Elizabeth Smart
Allen Steed
Rosita Swinton (page 279)
Linda Walker
Mike Watkiss
Les Zitting
Topics:
Babyland
Barbiturates
Blood atonement
Child abuse
Cocaine
Denny's restaurant
Drugs (pages 122-125, 132, 135, 139, 141, 157, 236, 281)
Fumerase deficiency
God Squad (almost as many mentions as drugs)
Jealousy
Lost Boys
Midwest Italian Mafia
Ovulation tests
Penthouse magazine
Poofers
Ruby Ridge
Unconditional love
Utah Supreme Court
Welfare fraud
Flora's playlist:
Air Supply
Pat Benetar
Best of the Beach Boys
Black Sabbath
Go-Go's
Bob Seger
Surfin' USA (Beach Boys)
Turn the Page
Phoenix men's clubs:
Centerfolds
Mr. Lucky's
Tiffany's Cabaret
Other places:
Arizona
Binion's Horseshoe Casino
British Columbia
California
Canaan Mountain
Coral Pink Sand Dunes
Death Highway
Eldorado
Eudora, Kansas
Fredonia
Independence, Missouri
Ivins, Utah
Jacob Lake, Arizona (very pretty place! Hopefully, nothing bad went on there . . . )
Kansas City, Miss.
Little Cottonwood Canyon
Mexico
Pacific Beach, Calif.
Springfield, Miss
Tonopah, Ariz.
Zion National Park
102 Comments:
This post has been removed by the author.
Now this will be a book worth spending money on. Lets see Flora will might make millions with her book and Betty will be lucky to make $10.00 on hers. Betty's only audience will not be able to afford her book, all their funds are being spent defending the child molesters.
If I recall correctly, Flora left about 1986. The "keep sweet" phrase wasn't introduced until about 1991. I'm not so sure she would be much of an authority of what it means.
But to me and thousands of other abused kids, keep sweet meant keep silent as your father is molesting you. Say nothing as your mom or dad beats you with their fists, a belt, a steel pipe.''
Yet, this is what Uncle Rulon said about keeping sweet (Aug. 29, 1991):
So when I say, "Keep sweet," keep the Holy Spirit of God, as Joseph Smith pled with the saints through Brigham Young, when he had a dream in which he saw and talked with the Prophet Joseph Smith, who had passed on. So when you are teaching, dear brothers and sisters, do it by the Holy
Spirit of God.
Sorry Flora but the keep sweet teachings didn't really come about until Uncle Rulon came on the seen. You had left long befor that. Yes we were taught to be sweet, but the KEEP SWEET teachings didn't become intense until Uncle Rulons days.
Ron Parker (Wonder if that is supposed to be Rod Parker?)
-------
Try word searching the book. This seems to be Ron Parker, "Tim's best man."
CSurge, that's interesting. So Flora's book is only just out, and already there are documented lies in it.
I can't imagine anyone expected anything different from Flora....
I'm sure she is green with envy of Carolyn....
Sad....she really is a sad creature...
long before this mess, I remember seeing her on television and thought 'something's wrong with her...'
She struck me as almost feral....manic and feral....
"CSurge, that's interesting. So Flora's book is only just out, and already there are documented lies in it."
Actually, Lucille, "keep sweet" has been a philosophy of the Mormon church since the very beginning. You can find references to it in very old Doctrines and Covenents and in Sermons from long, long ago. But the FLDS are quite good at twisting things to make someone seem to be lying even if they tell the truth exactly as they see it. Apparently their mother's don't teach them "half a truth is also half a lie" like my father taught me.
You can find references to it in very old Doctrines and Covenents [sic] and in Sermons [sic] from long, long ago.
There is no "half a truth" on this question: either the phrase was introduced in 1991 as CSurge claims, or it was introduced by Joseph Smith or other early Mormons, as you claim. Do you have an exact quote? I have very little familiarity with Mormon writings.
Isn't it possible that "keep sweet" is a phrase found throughout the writings of the Church, but not popularized as an everyday term until Rulon Jeffs included it in a sermon and subsequent lectures and teachings in 1991?
Isn't it possible that Flora is capitalizing on Carolyn's focus on the term and it's meaning to her?
When I first heard the phrase "keep sweet", I thought it was horrible! Of course I heard it from Carolyn....
Now, as I have come to understand it better, I not only am not offended by the phrase itself, but I find it to be an incredibly useful way of creating a mental reminder to try to stay calm and rational and not allow my emotions to get in the way of common sense or reasonable action....
Sad....she really is a sad creature...
long before this mess, I remember seeing her on television and thought 'something's wrong with her...'
She struck me as almost feral....manic and feral....
If she was indeed sexually abused and beaten with "metal pipes" as she claims, that could account for her current state of mind.
The problem I have with her and Carolyn is taking their alleged personal experiences and applying them to the entire community.
Creating a frenzy of fear in Tx citizens and officials with their innacurate Apostate Narrative.
Their stories are their stories, but providing rumors and wilda** imaginings as fact, costing taxpayers money unnecessarily should be actionable.
I'd like to see both write their next books from behind bars.
From Improvement Era, 1908:
"No matter how disagreeable your work, or how much trouble you may have, resolve that whatever comes to you or does not come to you, you will keep sweet, that you will not allow your disposition to sour, that you will face the sunlight, no matter how deep the shadows..."
"She struck me as almost feral....manic and feral...."
That's funny, Regina, you frequently strike me the same way...
Thanks, FA, for finding that reference for me. I appreciate it. :)
"There is no "half a truth" on this question: either the phrase was introduced in 1991 as CSurge claims, or it was introduced by Joseph Smith or other early Mormons, as you claim."
Well, FA showed one reference to it, and I'd say that D&C 132 by Joseph to Emma was the start of it. (Remember, it's the one that promises her eternal destruction if she doesn't "support" Joseph in all things including plural marriage.) And yes, if you go to exmormon.org you can read stories of Mormons, not FLDS, who left because of the exact same philosophy -- "don't be unhappy, don't think about what is wrong, listen to the advice (instruction) of priesthood holders..." It's not new at all and it is a poisonous teaching to people who have a need to think for themselves. (I don't say it is a poisonous teaching for all, because some people don't have a need to think for themselves and are, in fact, happier when someone else tells them what to think. But not all people are like that.)
Tx....Doesn't it just drive you nuts the money these broads have cost folks???....the things that COULD have been funded....
Worst part is, Flora could probably do time and be okay...but Carolyn, who has no excuse for her crap except greed, and so richly and rightly deseves jail, is the one who would come away scot free...she is the more "identifiable" of the two...
Flora was, at least according to other family member's accountings, pretty severly abused, and not that what she does is right, but is more understandable, is the one that folks would turn on in a heartbeat....
Very interesting. I grew up with Flora, went to school with her. She definitely had bad stuff to deal with but she left long before Uncle Rulon started trying to teach us to keep sweet. She should have stuck with what Uncle Roy taught, "Get and keep the spirit of God."
Anyone at her age and stage getting molested would be hard put to do either but others have endured similar circumstances and didn't try blaming the church for an individuals devilishness.
The people that inflicted such atrocities on children that were found out, were turned over to law enforcement and turned out of the church. The nonsense Flora and Carolyn describe would never be condoned by church leaders.
An interesting letter regarding the true character of dear Flora is at:
http://www.truthwillprevail.org/index.php?parentid=1&index=45
After reading that, I wouldn't believe Flora if she said the sky was blue.
First Amendment,
That's interesting that you found that quote. Uncle Rulon says that he borrowed the phrase "keep sweet" from John Y. Barlow. But it was Uncle Rulon who really brought it to light and taught so much from just those two words. In doing a search of his sermons, the earliest date I can find where "keep sweet" appears is on May 26, 1991.
The Gospel of Jesus Christ is the plan of God unto salvation. If we want our salvation we must pay a price, the price of obedience. Be sweet. "Keep sweet," as Uncle John always said, and which I can't help but repeat every day in talking to people. Keeping sweet means keeping the Holy Spirit of God. That is the grand, all-powerful influence, and power of the Gods, and by which we become like God, to have a fullness of that Holy Spirit in us.
Rebeckah, I'm not trying to twist anything. The philosophy of being sweet, humble, and obedient, is as old as the Church, but having those two words as a saying for everyone to remember didn't happen until the early 90's.
I remember seeing placques on the wall saying "Keep Sweet" as a child but the 'public' teaching of the phrase was in the early 90's maybe very late 80's as I remember, so I'm with CSurge.
Flora has 'selective' amnesia and rememberance.
Regina
What crime has Carolyn Jessop committed that you think she should be put into jail? If she has lied and damaged someone's reputation let them file suit and have a full public trial where all the relevant facts will be known. I suspect no one has done that since people with dirty laundry don't like folks rummaging through their drawers.
Sometimes I think there's hope for you, but after your comments today, all I can say is - pathetic - truly pathetic.
Oh my goodness, Ron....Sometimes I think you truly missed your calling and should be on the afternoon soaps....
Is "Drama Queen" in the DSM, yet?
Regina
Give it a rest - you said Carolyn Jessop should be behind bars. If that is not the worst case of pathetic hyperbole then I don't know what is.
Drama queen is not in the DSM; however, maybe we should refer perpetrator advocate to the DSM V committee.
Ron....I cut you all sorts of slack with what, to me, is over dramatization of your feelings about specific issues....I figure that, for whatever reasons, some things just bring up the strongest emotional reactions...no biggy....
I expect the same leeway from you.
I don't know what triggers your reactions. You don't know my triggers.
Get off your high horse. It's made out of maper mache and is going to collapse under you!
Ron....Truth be told, I think jail is a bit too easy for dear, sweet Carolyn...
I'd like to see her in a netherworld placement, where she is incapable of sleeping, looking away, or in anyway escaping...I'd like her nether world filled with figures of FLDS ladies coming toward her and only when almost atop her moving off to the side as the next pair approach...I'd like them all to be smiling...I'd like a white noise of a monotone, indecipherable female voice to go on, and on, and on.....forever.....
I think that would be Carolyn's 'just deserts'...
****Sweet smile****
Regina
No I won't cut you any leeway. If someone got on here and said your FLDS friends were "Sad....really sad creature(s)..." or that there is "something's wrong with her (them)..." you'd be braying like a donkey.
If someone said that those same friends were deliberately violating the law and should be thrown in jail, you'd be getting on your "cultural sensitivity" band wagon.
Geez woman, have you no shame?
Regina
OK
Now, you're not only pathetic, you're also sadistic.
Ron, give it a rest....
Carolyn is despicable in my book....
I know Carolyn's ilk all too well....I know the coices she had and the choices she made....and she sickens me on more levels than you'll ever know....
She turns my stomach in the worst of ways...I have nothing but contempt for the type of whore she is.
Ron, you have no idea...
Regina said:
I have nothing but contempt for the type of whore she is.
Ron, you have no idea...
Sounds like you've got some really big issues there - have you considered counseling?
Ron,
How might you feel if CPS invaded your home and took all your children, held them for 2 months, and subjected them to all manner of abusive exams, testing, and unfamilar environments?
Took them based on the rantings of a neighbor, relative, school personnel, total stranger? Better yet, an ex-wife?
The list of BS allegations made by Carolyn, etal is long. Had they not lied/ exaggerated, the state may not have been so quick to attack and ask questions later, obeyed the laws and rights of the FLDS. This is a bad precedent to set. Disgruntled ex-whatever can start a shit storm of action because the authorities don't confirm their allegations. So who is ultimately responsible? Carolyn, etal? Or CPS/LE for taking all the BS at face value?
CPS has egg smeared all over their face. Hildebran has admitted as much with his latest public comments- Lots of mistakes made. And the kicker- blatantly misrepresenting that the mistakes were made because CPS doesn't have enough power and the laws are inadequate. Surely you can admit that his comment is total BS. The laws were more than adequate to deal with this situation. Although, they might add something about how to ensure that each child is given their 14 day hearing when/if CPSs rounds up another community of kids.
Gee Txblogger
No matter how ham handed CPS may have been they went out there and what did they find?
Child abuse. A high ranking bishop marrying off his 12 year old daughter like a piece of meat. The Prophet and his cronies having sex with 14 year old girls.
CPS may have egg on their faces, but the FLDS have the slime from their cesspool on their faces.
Ron, if there is libellous statements in a book, can that be made a criminal offense, or is freedom of speech such that all a person can do is sue? And where is the boundary between libel, gossip, and free speech from a civil suit perspective?
Further,
[CPS]Workers also may inform any reporter that TFC, §261.107, sets a Class B misdemeanor penalty for knowingly or intentionally making a report without a factual foundation.
Texas Family Code §261.107
So I'd say Carolyn etal, are guilty, for all intents and purposes, of knowingly or intentionally making reports without factual foundations.
These are some of the most vengeful women I've seen in a while, and each carries a carpet bag full of emotion garbage. Is that the type of "informant" considered desirable?
Wish I could run into Cockerell in a bar. I'd have to ask him if he was the least bit embarrased about the "broken bones" issue that he was publicly slapped around for. Same to Meisner.
Ron:
"No matter how ham handed CPS may have been they went out there and what did they find?
Child abuse. A high ranking bishop marrying off his 12 year old daughter like a piece of meat. The Prophet and his cronies having sex with 14 year old girls."
Did I miss the part where CPS "went out there" and found "the Prophet", whatever he was doing?
K....didn't you see the footage of the maidens being bedded in the temple by the crinkly, wrinkly dirty old men, on just the right day to insure they all get pregnant????
why my goodness, I thought everyone saw that!!! I mean afterall, Carolyn told you just where to look....
And you must be the only one who didn't see the Prophet hiding in the school under the outdated books with all the pages torn out, and the boxes of crayons with all the red ones removed???...why theat stuff was right next to the secret toy stash of all the lesbian lovers....near the cribs of all the dying, deformed babies...CPS didn't want them, they coudn't be easily placed, and not to worry...there's the furnace just waiting...all stoked and ready to go....
K...oops, I forgot, you were too busy watching all the children being beaten and their bones being broken and left unattended, because all the women were busy toiling the gardens and baking the bread and making the cheese for the dirty, crinkly, old, no longer horny, because they just deflowered all the maidens, to eat.....
Ron in Houston said...
Gee Txblogger
No matter how ham handed CPS may have been they went out there and what did they find?
Child abuse. A high ranking bishop marrying off his 12 year old daughter like a piece of meat. The Prophet and his cronies having sex with 14 year old girls.
----------
They also found a bus load of pregnant teenagers and broken bones by the bushel. They're findings are only allegations, and their track record shows that their allegations are entirely self-serving, and fall apart when they get into court. Into a real court.
Kbp
Geez, are you really that literal or are you just playing word games?
OK, to satisfy you, "they found evidence of...."
First Amendment
Yeah, want to put some money where your mouth is? My bet is when the perpetrators of that abuse get to "real court" they'll get some hefty "real time."
Regina
You obviously haven't read Carolyn's book and you're seriously in need of therapy.
Baggage...Ron, you wouldn't know baggage if you were frigging packed into a steamer trunk and shipped to China...
Baggage?????
Oh boy do I have baggage about young, capable, attractive, reasonably intelligent women who sell their sould....
She had all sorts of choices...don't hand me that crap about having to feed her children...go turn a trick on the corner, for crying out loud...it's more honnorable than selling your soul!
She deliberately made the choice to hurt the people who loved her, loved her children, cared for her, nurtured her, and missed her.
She made the choice to continue, year after year, to hurt those same people. She threatened her own daughter with CPS, yet she went to Texas to help put almost 500 children in the care of an agency she threatened as a punishment????
She lied to CPS to assure that the time the women were held captive was miserable, mean time????
ALMOST 500 CHILDREN because she is a spiteful, vengeful miserable person in soccer mom frumpy getups?
Ron in Houston said...
First Amendment
Yeah, want to put some money where your mouth is? My bet is when the perpetrators of that abuse get to "real court" they'll get some hefty "real time."
--------
Even though there is a federal law that could land some of these CPS types in jail, I doubt they'll ever see anything but the wrong end of a civil suit.
Furnace
Libel, slander and things that damage other people's reputations are civil as opposed to criminal wrongs. Free speech effectively eliminates criminal penalties. Free speech also has limited civil penalties for "public figures."
Regina
Yeah, right, it's all Carolyn's fault these "noble," "wonderful" people got raided. Ever think that perhaps it has something to do with the truth of 12 year old marriages and 14 year old mothers?
Nah, couldn't be - had to be Carolyn.
No matter how ham handed CPS may have been they went out there and what did they find?
So for you, the means (even violating the law) justify the end? Is that what you're saying? Is that a useful precedent to set to be applied to anyone or selectively. Is that where we're going?
Child abuse. A high ranking bishop marrying off his 12 year old daughter like a piece of meat. The Prophet and his cronies having sex with 14 year old girls.
NO "abuse" was found. How many men had sex with 14 year olds?
Further, why did Hildebran bother to change the "LEGAL" age of marriage from 16 to 14 to target the FLDS if the state doesn't recognize those "marriages" to begin with?
Some of the "sexual assault" cases are "assumed" based on "marriages". There'd be even fewer SA charges had the law not changed.
Ron, I am not responsible for the fact that you can't seem to get the image of your daughter being humped by a horny old, wrinkly, crinkly, fifty year old out of your mind.
Tell me, does incest run in your family?
Is this image one of nightmare or dreamlike quality?
Counseling? Therapy? Doing a little projecting, are we??????
Ron, You don't like it when it gets personal....
I remember once telling you I thought you were probably a piss poor family atty because you clearly knew jack squat about good practices for children.....boy oh boy did you get all huffy about that.....
Well, let me tell you, I'm not the only one who has noticed that you have paid an enormous degree of attention to this fantasy of yours with fourteen year olds...how old is your daughter, by the way????
maybe we've done you a disservice by not making it personal with you...maybe we should have been pushing you to get help, all along...
Tell me Ron, is your daughter at risk????
Should someone report these posts to CpS? Should your IP address be traced???
"After reading that, I wouldn't believe Flora if she said the sky was blue."
Which was no doubt the intent of the letter writer. Good to know it works on the gullible.
"she is a spiteful, vengeful miserable person in soccer mom frumpy getups?"
You realize, of course, that the flaws you see in others are the flaws you hate in yourself. And spiteful would be number one on your self loathing list, I'd say.
"Toothless white trash... Turn tricks on the corner... Don't make accusations without facts to show..." Sound familiar? It really is tragic that you can't see your own bile and how similar you are to those you try and trash...
Damn, R. You're reading my mind today.
Although I was formulating a post more along the lines of...
How Ron might feel if some anonymous Ahole called in a abuse report and demonstrated that he hangs out on blogs day and night, which could clearly indicate a neglect of his children Who's feeding them? Ensuring they brush their teeth? Doing the homework?
You can always tell when he's in the corner and his button's been pushed... he starts screaming "sex with 14 year olds". Yet he can't tell us how many 14 year olds have had babies. He's puts on the outwardly illusion that he is SOOOOOO concerned about this issue but hasn't done the necessary investigation to arrive at an accurate answer. Lazy. Just like all the attorneys I've ever encountered.
ROFLOL Word verification: Incessim
Speaking of personal, Ron, you should run over to Regina's blog. She's removed the worst attacks she's made on others -- can't even find her diatrabe on the rape victim. Thank God for lily white and pure people like Regina who would NEVER stoop to trash another person out of anger -- especially second hand anger for her internet friends. God knows that Carolyn couldn't possibly have felt the slightest amount of pain for herself or her children that might have led to her anger. Or at least she should have known that Regina has decreed that she should handle her own disappointments JUST as Regina did -- with kindness and sensitivity to all...
Tx...all day and all night, too....perhaps a bit of mania? Are his wife and children safe around him if he's having a full blown manic episode?
I boot the 'puter in the mornin' and who's been posting all night? Ron, of course!
That can't possibly be a healthy environment for his wife and children. Someone ought to save them!
Why, I've got it! Rebeckah can do it!!!!!
Rebeckah, You really don't want to start your insipid attempts at attacking me, today. I have been ignoring you, but don't push your luck. You are way, way out of your league.
And here comes Rebeckah of Sunnybrook Farm to the rescue.
She writes:
You realize, of course, that the flaws you see in others are the flaws you hate in yourself.
Actually, Becka, that is PRECISELY what R said. Why is it that Ron is obsessed with old men F'in 14 year olds? He doesn't even know if that is a true statement or how many it is true for, but hardly a day passes without a mention.
God knows that Carolyn couldn't possibly have felt the slightest amount of pain for herself or her children that might have led to her anger.
WAhhhhhh!!! She felt some pain, LIKE THE REST OF US. Then, LIKE THE REST OF US, she and the other apostates should get together for a support group. Get themselves some batakas and beat hell out of pillows. Make likenesses of those they are angry at and beat hell out of them.
But don't go trapsing across the country stirring up shit unnecessarily. Causing officials to get so rilled up that they forget the laws of the land. Creating unnecessary fear in the average citizen with their slanderous BS.
These women have an agenda. Do you really think, as they'd like, that the FLDS religion will be outlawed? Nope, doubt it. I don't think they're ignorant enough to believe their efforts could bring that end. So the real agenda is to hurt as many people as they can.
And, What IS wrong with a woman who threatens her kid with foster care? That in itself is abuse. LOL, I guess she couldn't use 'sending her back to the mean ol FLDS' as a threat'. LOL
Okay...Okay...
I walked away from my 'puter. I took several deep, cleansing breaths....
Ron, Rebeckah, I want you both to know I am sorry I lost my temper. I also want you both to know that I am working on loving you, despite how misguided I think you are.
*genuine smile*
Tx, I want you to know that I love the way you are able to nail things without ever getting really meanspirited!!!!!!
Regina
I must have struck a nerve because now you're really going psycho on me. I'm certainly not projecting onto this situation because, gee, guess what, there are 52 year old men having sex with 14 year old girls. It's not like I'm projecting some alternate reality onto what are the TRUE facts here.
I don't "scream" sex with 14 year old girls, I repeat it over and over (and over and over and over) to remind all you delusional dimwits of the FACTS in this matter. You guys are defending a group with the highest ranking members religiously sanctioning child abuse. Talk about pathetic individuals.
I shouldn't expect so much because you consistently defend the perpetrators of abuse and trash folks who have been abused. This behavior is so consistent and bizarre that I really suspect there is some pathology going on with you.
I don't have to defend my behavior. You're the pathetic individual who takes every opportunity to identify with sexual perpetrators and trashes their victims.
Please Regina, consider this an intervention, get some help.
"Geez, are you really that literal or are you just playing word games?
OK, to satisfy you, "they found evidence of....""
Mainly what I see as the problem is using alleged acts by some guy who has been in prison for two years in another state as justification for the raid.
"And, What IS wrong with a woman who threatens her kid with foster care? That in itself is abuse. LOL, I guess she couldn't use 'sending her back to the mean ol FLDS' as a threat'. LOL"
Excellent question. Is it inherently wrong, if you and your child have some pretty irreconcilable differences, to bring up an alternative home? Is that better or worse than allowing them to run off and ignoring them? Is it better or worse than locking them out of the house? Is it better or worse than marrying them off before their legal majority. Quick! Let's point our judgemental fingers at Carolyn for doing her best by her daughter!
How is it that Carolyn is responsible for the Texas raid? I saw her on the news afterwards talking about what it had been like for her, but I am not sure how she was the one who caused this. Anyone? And, why is she considered a whore by some of you? Because she left a bad marraige and a lifestyle that abusive?
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Webster defines Drama Queen as: a person given to often excessively emotional performances or reactions
I think it fits. And I'm certain that if you read the DSM you'll find a label for it.
Gee Txblogger
I'd say you fit in that definition also, Ms. "I hate CPS so bad it hurts."
Even though there is a federal law that could land some of these CPS types in jail, I doubt they'll ever see anything but the wrong end of a civil suit.
Good luck. Read the Gates case. The judge ruled they acted wrongly, in violation of the law, but gave them immunity. So there was acknowledgment that what was done was wrong, but no consequences for the abuser- CPS etal.
That just doesn't jibe in a society that is big on consequences as a motivator for changing inappropriate behavior.
Paul said...
"How is it that Carolyn is responsible for the Texas raid?"
The FLDS are leading the charge in an imaginary war of Good vs. Evil which means they need some "evil" people who are out to get them. If Flora disappeared tomorrow they would find someone else to blame all their problems on that very same day.
"The Superior Court in Mohave County, AZ has just ruled that Texas has to prove the Search Warrent was valid and they took all their “Evidense” legally and in “Good Faith”."
Paul,
Some people here would rather blame Carolyn for her rather sensationalized book for the YFZ debacle than the spread the blame to all parties involved. Regina in particular is quite harsh because when she was in what she considered to be a comparable situation she choose to not speak out to the general public because she "realized" it would hurt people. So she expects Carolyn to deal with a similar (and yet very different) situation in the same way. Regina seem to feel great disgust for Carolyn not being the towering source of integrity that she (Regina) is. Actually, I'm starting to wonder if Regina might be going through menopause because she seems to vacilate between reasonable and quite hateful. Mood swings anyone?
Hey, how many pages does that floral book arrangment have. I could use a good supply of toilet tissue during these hard times.
Never mind. I don't want infested flora all over my butt.
Street
Txblogger
Let me give you a big "fuck you."
Uhhh. I don't know about that. I'm 14 and I think you're, like 50. Besides, isn't adultery illegal?
You don't have to watch the videos of little girls talking about being raped. You don't have to see the pain in their faces. You don't have to see the loss of innocence that comes with that trauma.
Yep, so finally the source of your distress about this is revealed. You watch videos of girls talking about being raped, then ASSUME that the FLDS young women who chose to parent earlier than most are violently raped, against their will. Do you really think that is the case? Did you see any pictures of young FLDS women that look like those in the videos? If you've watched enough of them and are astute, then you should know the "look of abuse".
Yes, I'm a fucking broken record. Why, because it's true.
No, you're a fucking broken record because that's all you are able to say. You won't even do the leg work necessary to support your broken record. How many 14 year olds are being VIOLENTLY RAPED AGAINST THEIR WILL? That is precisely the image you hope to project into the psyches of anyone reading this blog.
Abuse is going on at the highest levels of the FLDS. I frankly don't give a shit whether you think it's justified because of whatever happens in the rest of society.
Yes, no comparison. A teenager gets pregnant in Tx every 10 minutes, and half with an adult male. There are sure some extraordinary things happening out at the ranch. What's unreasonable, is that you are intelligent enough to know these girls aren't being violently raped, and you should know by now that they decide when they are ready to parent; yet you portray the situation in the worst light possible, because you can't get the "raped girls" of your secular world out of your head. How many high-levels are "having sex" with 14 year olds? Every night? Against their will? Only to procreate? How many marriages are between couples near the same age and/or over the legal age? Can you comment on anything except "sex with 14 year olds"?
You go watch the videos of 12 year old girls talking about being raped and then maybe I'll let you make your fucking inane and absurd comments.
You may be an attorney, but you will never, EVER, be in a position to "let me" do anything. Got it, Mr Macho?
Flora is leading the charge in an imaginary war of Good vs "Evil". If the FLDS were raptured tomorrow, she would find someone else to blame for her problems.
Same could be said about CPS. They believe they are infallible. Unfortunately they have an endless supply of victims to torture.
Puny said (2:28 PM)
Paul said...
"How is it that Carolyn is responsible for the Texas raid?"
The FLDS are leading the charge in an imaginary war of Good vs. Evil which means they need some "evil" people who are out to get them. If Flora disappeared tomorrow they would find someone else to blame all their problems on that very same day.
REPLY: What problems? The FLDS down't have any problems. It is the world's problems, and their courts and their law agencies wading neck deep in their own presumptions and corruptions.
This is why the Texas governor's mansion burned. This is why a Texas sized hurricane recently destroyed Galvaston and much of Houston. This is why Texas recently recanted, saying: "We have exhausted all legal remedy". This is why their home-grown President demolished their economy, and now Obama-ination of desolation ensues.
Sweetness is what the FLDS is all about, and the world knows it. This is why they are attacking themselves now, not understanding the doctrine of life. "A house divided against itself cannot stand", saith the Lord, and a system of churches calling themselves "Christian", while legislating against marriage and life itself, is the Anti-Christ, yes a "Church of Lies".
If your doctrine doesn't square with the Canon Law, it is lawless and godless, is it not. Everyone would agree with that.
Street
Txblogger
I don't know which you are more - pathetic or pathological.
One involves a conscious choice, Ms. Defend the Perps.
" How many 14 year olds are being VIOLENTLY RAPED AGAINST THEIR WILL? That is precisely the image you hope to project into the psyches of anyone reading this blog."
Actually, that's YOUR image. Once again you take something someone has said and add to it. Rape is rape whether the victim was "willing" or not if the victim is below the legal age of consent. YOUR definition of rape would let quite a few pedophiles off the hook because the child victim didn't know enough to realize that they were being raped at the time. Get a grip.
"Flora is leading the charge in an imaginary war of Good vs "Evil". If the FLDS were raptured tomorrow, she would find someone else to blame for her problems."
Wow, such insight. When did you become a bona fide psychic? What card am I thinking of right now?
outoftheinsaneward (aka onthestreet) said the following:
This is why the Texas governor's mansion burned. This is why a Texas sized hurricane recently destroyed Galvaston and much of Houston. This is why Texas recently recanted, saying: "We have exhausted all legal remedy". This is why their home-grown President demolished their economy, and now Obama-ination of desolation ensues.
Damn, how soon until Brooke moves to Wordpress?
Excellent question. Is it inherently wrong, if you and your child have some pretty irreconcilable differences, to bring up an alternative home? Is that better or worse than allowing them to run off and ignoring them? Is it better or worse than locking them out of the house? Is it better or worse than marrying them off before their legal majority. Quick! Let's point our judgemental fingers at Carolyn for doing her best by her daughter!
Every "effect" parent knows that you don't threaten anything you're not willing to follow through with. Carolyn's ongoing threats of sending her to foster care may have been the primary cause of their "irreconcilable differences". Couple that with making B the primary caretaker of the younger children, and I can see problems, irreconcilable.
You consider foster care an "alternative home"? LOL
But then, you've shared enough to demonstrate that you put much too much faith in CPS, as Carolyn does.
iforgotmymeds said...
"Sweetness is what the FLDS is all about, and the world knows it. This is why they are attacking themselves now, not understanding the doctrine of life."
Yup, nothing gets on my nerves more than "sweetness." In fact, just the other day I was walking down the street and someone did something nice and it just pissed me off, ruined my whole day.
Arizona judge not real happy with state prosecutors!
"Every "effect" parent knows that you don't threaten anything you're not willing to follow through with. Carolyn's ongoing threats of sending her to foster care may have been the primary cause of their "irreconcilable differences"."
No, their issues stemmed from the fact that Carolyn "rescued" Betty from a world Betty didn't want to be rescued from. If you'd read the article you might have learned the Betty finally went to live with an uncle who was no longer in the FLDS. Carolyn did her level best for her daughter and it did not include either foster care OR abandoning her. She has my respect.
Rebeckah, did I define rape?
Webster does a good job:
Rape is defined as sexual intercourse FORCED on a person ...
as in violence, by my interpretation. The definition has been expanded because the state doesn't trust judges to be able to make case-by-case decisions.
Here's what the Tx AG had to say about sex with minors in state custody. Why the double standard?
Texas Youth Commission and CPS Corruption- known as the "Pedophile Scandel". Thousands of minor boys being sodomized (and pimped $$$) in TYC.
Officials response, "we don't know if it was painful for the boys"... "might've been CONSENTUAL"... "might've enjoyed it" !!!
Officials admit it happened. AG Gonzales ignored the scam refused to prosecute.
US Att Johnny Sutton said no civil rights violation unless the boy feels pain. Had no proof the boys felt pain. No prosecution.
THOUSANDS of cases of statutory rape, ethics violations- rape of incarcerated inmates held against their will, prostitution- all ignored.
You know, TxBlogger, that's the second time you've posted that particularl story. And I don't know how many times you've posted that children are 4 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO SUFFER A BROKEN BONE OR DIE IN CPS CUSTODY!!!! Perhaps we should look at your familiy for sodomy and broken bones. Apparently, (by the sick standards you tried to hold Ron to) this is something that excites you...
I don't know which you are more - pathetic or pathological.
Neither or both. In the big picture, does your opinion of me really matter? I think not.
Somehow, somewhere the fact that Carolyn saw things like Elissa Wall being sealed to her 19 year old cousin or various other marriages between older men and 14 year old girls, gets lost.
Carolyn wanted to give her daughter a choice whether she wanted it or not. If you ask me, that is a sign of responsible parenting. The fact that her daughter now wants to go back does not negate that Carolyn made the responsible parental choice.
Yes Txblogger
Perhaps Rebeckah is right. Are you really 14? If so, then you must have had significant interaction with CPS. It's very common for child abuse victims to identify with their parental abuser.
Perhaps you need to reconsider your position.
You know, TxBlogger, that's the second time you've posted that particularl story. And I don't know how many times you've posted that children are 4 TIMES MORE LIKELY TO SUFFER A BROKEN BONE OR DIE IN CPS CUSTODY!!!!
Perhaps you should consider the double standard the story portrays rather than rambling on with your opinions of my interaction with Ron. I imagine that is difficult for you.
Use that "liberated mind" of yours to THINK.
What "DO YOU THINK" about the opinions of the State and US Att's? Think that precedent could be cited as a defense in the FLDS cases? If not, WHY????
No sodomy.
100% of the children in my family sustained a broken bone. 100% of my children sustained a broken bone.
Yikes... call the gestapo quick!!!
Wow, such insight. When did you become a bona fide psychic? What card am I thinking of right now?
Ummm. The Old Maid?
How many guesses do I get?
Hermit?
"Perhaps you should consider the double standard the story portrays rather than rambling on with your opinions of my interaction with Ron. I imagine that is difficult for you."
Actually it is. What double standard do you find in the story I've shared about my own experiences?
"Use that "liberated mind" of yours to THINK.
What "DO YOU THINK" about the opinions of the State and US Att's?"
I think they were the opinion of a bunch of lazy "good ol' boys" who didn't want to do their job. Unfortunately that happens way too often in this world.
"Think that precedent could be cited as a defense in the FLDS cases? If not, WHY????"
Nope, I don't. The "opinion" of an attorney is NOT case law it's one man's opinion. A verdict in a trial is what makes laws and defines them.
To the original story and not to the schoolyard brawl that ensued here, I had to laugh at the mention of the "God Squad"
The term came from Ross Chatwin I think, twisting the "Pod Squad" that U Rulon Jeffs called the two or three portly fellows who were his bodyguards.
It is amazing how people can work themselves up over things that go on in their own imaginations. Then they get others to believe it and get them worked up too. Flora's imagination MUST BE STOPPED! Raid the community, steal all the children! SAVE THEM! (from what Flora says is true, but is only true in her own imagination)
You can't fix stupid. But you can KEEP SWEET!
Pliggy said…
“It is amazing how people can work themselves up over things that go on in their own imaginations.”
Are you suggesting that we all imagined Warren evicting hundreds of men and breaking up their families? Did we imagine that he was not only encouraging children and adults to marry but commanding them by the authority of his position? Did we imagine the official FLDS policy that they are not subject to the laws of the country they lived in?
Good for you Flora! An important step on the road to her own personal healing is to tell what happened. I am sure that the FLDS leaders are so irritated that their imaginary threat of eternal damnation has had no effect on her. When your religion is a fraud,so are the consequences for not following it!
Bodyguards? You mean "sweet old wonderful Prophet Rulon" needed body guards? From whom? His flock?
Wow, wonderful group you hung with Pliggy.
Absurdo,
YES!
with friends like you harley, who needs enemy's?
Pliggy I have lots of friends, and I've never been kicked out of anything!
So I guess that puts me ahead of you buddy!
Wow, take a few day leave of blogs and it would be impossible to catch up. But at least it's not as bad as Brooke's articles on the tribune blog.
I will ask, why shouldn't Carolyn's and Flora's beliefs be treated with just as much sacredness and reverence as religion? Or conversely, why shouldn't religion be attacked as brutally as Carolyn or Flora? Who's to say the 1886 meeting isn't a bigger tall-tale than anything Flora or Carolyn have ever said. Are there ANY fundamentalists who are witnesses to the 1886 meeting? And let's not get me started on revisionist history, such as "parable of the wheat and tares. The work couldn't stand a division then." I will also state that the audio recordings and the printed sermons don't agree. So, if we are going to attack Flora and Carolyn, lets attack religion equally. If we are going to reverence religion, let's reverence these ladies equally.
way ahead harley, go waaay ahead.
furnace, you reverence Flora and Carolyn, and I will reverence religion. Deal?
There is a slight difference between believing a religion, and believing others must be stopped from believing their religon.
Pliggy, you go attack Flora and Carolyn, and your religion will get attacked. Deal?
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Does Flora lie? Some say she does. Does FLDS leadership lie? Some say they do. And I do indeed believe that there have been just as outrageous lies at the heart of FLDS leadership to try and maintain power as anything Flora has ever said, and that's not saying much, since I don't trust Flora. It's saying I trust the FLDS leadership even less. One obvious lie of late is the FLDS trying to scapegoat all their woes on others; be it "apostates", Bruce, or whoever they can find to put the blame on.
You are certainly capable of believing Flora and Carolyn's lies, that is your choice. If the FLDS leaders are lying, it will only be proven in the next life. "Maintaining power" is only over those who WANT him to maintain "power" over themselves. You obviously have made your choice, no one made it for you, and you can't make it for anyone else.
To "scapegoat" must mean that the raid was because they knew about "crimes", right? That the persecution is all because Dan Fischer and his crew were right?
Now do you other folks see what I mean by "bitter"?
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