NonFLDS meeting Friday
On Friday evening, nonFLDS residents of the twin towns held a meeting to express their views about the United Effort Plan Trust.
I assumed their views were being channeled through the advisory board since it is comprised of all nonmembers, but apparently some people consider the board to have an agenda of its own.
I did not go. Is there any one out there who attended and can give us a review of what was said? I'd like to hear from you.
The nonFLDS say they fear the trust will be returned to the FLDS and they will again be shunned in the towns and hassled about their properties. It has been nine weeks since Judge Lindberg sent the parties to the backrooms to negotiate some compromise over the trust's management but little has come forward so far. The FLDS have been given management of Cottonwood Park, but that is it as far as I am aware.
Attorneys on both sides will only say they are still talking. Jeff Shields, who represents Wisan, told me the other day that he thinks talks will continue for abut another month, when they'll either have a deal or an insurmountable impasse. He made it clear that any deal would not roll the clock back four years to its pre-takeover status.
I would guess any compromise has to provide a way for nonFLDS to have their homes free and clear and an advisory board made up of nonFLDS and FLDS. Perhaps there will be a two-tier system, with nonFLDS getting deeds and FLDS who choose to do so remaining in some kind of a trust.
I am just speculating here. Now it's your turn.
I assumed their views were being channeled through the advisory board since it is comprised of all nonmembers, but apparently some people consider the board to have an agenda of its own.
I did not go. Is there any one out there who attended and can give us a review of what was said? I'd like to hear from you.
The nonFLDS say they fear the trust will be returned to the FLDS and they will again be shunned in the towns and hassled about their properties. It has been nine weeks since Judge Lindberg sent the parties to the backrooms to negotiate some compromise over the trust's management but little has come forward so far. The FLDS have been given management of Cottonwood Park, but that is it as far as I am aware.
Attorneys on both sides will only say they are still talking. Jeff Shields, who represents Wisan, told me the other day that he thinks talks will continue for abut another month, when they'll either have a deal or an insurmountable impasse. He made it clear that any deal would not roll the clock back four years to its pre-takeover status.
I would guess any compromise has to provide a way for nonFLDS to have their homes free and clear and an advisory board made up of nonFLDS and FLDS. Perhaps there will be a two-tier system, with nonFLDS getting deeds and FLDS who choose to do so remaining in some kind of a trust.
I am just speculating here. Now it's your turn.
76 Comments:
This could become interesting.
What would the non-members have to whine about if they got the houses?
.....the "advisory board" has undoubtedly been relieved of its duties, thus severing the non-FLDS umbilical cord to Wisan.
Why would the "advisory board" have been relieved of it's duties? Do you have information no one else does?
One things explained at the meeting is a good settlement is one that makes both sides equally angry.
I can confirm that they indeed have been relieved of their duties!! By the Attorney General counsel, except Wisan himself and only because he has to be excused by the Judge.
Well Rebeckah, I will just have to say I have lots of info that very few others have, but I will leave you with just the little tidbit I already provided. But stay tuned. However, yes, the Wisan appointed puppets are history.
You know, the absolute contempt vomited out on a regular basis for anyone who disagrees with the FLDS is quite disturbing. It denotes a mindset that lends itself to all kinds of abuses without the slightest remorse because "They are evil, lying, making money, _____" (You can fill in the blank with plenty of other epitaths.) Outside in the real world there are usually at least two sides to a story, but I guess in the FLDS there is only the FLDS side and the wrong side.
Rebeckah, whew! Feeling better? But I would have to counter that anyone with an opinion on any matter that they are passionate about, FLDS or non-FLDS, shares your viewpoint. If someone is adamant about an issue, well of course, it's because he/she feels their opinion is right and although they may respect your right to differ, it doesn't alter the fact that they think they are right.
Rebeckah,
I read this blog but I do not post, often.
I believe you are attributing contempt that is shown to you by others, to everyone that does not support everything about the FLDS.
You consistently show contempt for the FLDS, their lifestyle, and individuals on this blog who support them. You just cannot seem to accept the fact that the contempt is turning back around on you.
If you were not contemptible, you would not be shown contempt.
There's a difference between believing I am right and you are wrong and in declaring, "Because I am right you are (a puppet, lying, an immoral person....). In short, it doesn't end with I am right and you are wrong; it generally goes on to, and you are a bad person.
I don't have contempt for the FLDS and I'm sorry that I come across that way. I do have contempt for the practice of belittling people who disagree with you. I also have some pretty major questions about how "good" a religion can be when it was founded by a man like Joseph Smith.
Truthteller,
So, because I display contempt, in your opinion, I am necessarily contemptible?
con·tempt·i·ble
ADJECTIVE:
Deserving of contempt; despicable.
Over and over again I see statements that indicate that those who dare to speak out against the FLDS are not only wrong, but they are simply vile human beings. (Flora was a stripper! Elyssa had an affair! Huh, Joseph Smith had affairs for 11 years before he came clean to his wife.)
In context of the UEP, who is the FLDS? They didn't exist until about 50 years after the UEP was founded. Who actually represents the original settlors? John Timpson's group? Winston's group? How do the FLDS have any more standing as to "owning the land" than John Timpson's group? Or Winston's group? And just who should it be turned back to? Willy Jessop? Bishop Willy? Lyle?
Rebeckah said...
(Flora was a stripper! Elyssa had an affair!
Flora was...
Elissa did....
Huh, Joseph Smith had affairs for 11 years before he came clean to his wife.)
What?????? What are you talking about Rebeckah?
It is statements like that about the Prophet Joseph Smith, that is founded in thin air, that make the contempt personal.
Sorry to burst your bubble but those statements are based on veriafiable sources. There are tons of journals, paper articles and documents from that time period that clearly show Joseph's philandering ways. Diarys from the women involved also show the pain and turmoil his behaviors created. Close your eyes if you wish, but truth is truth. In fact, the truth behind the "extermination" order in Missouri was quite an interesting read, as was the REAL reason the Mormons left in February instead of the spring.
Rose,
I'm not saying they didn't. I'm saying that those actions do not make them liars. In the book of many of the FLDS that may mean that they cannot be trusted at all, but if that is the case then neither can a any of you. Let he (or she) who is without sin cast the first stone...
As for Joseph Smith's affairs -- adultry is the term for a man who "marries" another man's wife. Since he sent several of the men off on "mission" work before doing so, it's pretty clear that the husbands weren't in on his plan. Since he didn't tell his legal wife Emma (with whom he contracted a MONAGOMOUS marriage) until 11 years AFTER the first verifiable adultry, it's clear she didn't know either. In other words, he lied to the men who trusted them to sleep with their wives and he lied to his wife about it too. Then, when he told her, it was under the guise of a prophet and with plenty of promises of eternal damnation if she didn't go along. Much of the information is kept in the archives of the Mormon church.
Sorry, I made a typo -- I was saying that if Flora and Elyssa being "immoral" meant that they couldn't be trusted that in that case MANY of the FLDS could not be trusted -- not any. Typo, not an attempt to paint all with the same brush.
Rebekah go take a tylenol. It's clear you're getting the meanings of words (like "adultery") mixed up and causing you to go on a righteous fury. Don't worry, things aren't always as they seem; and you will never understand half of the religions and cultures out there simply by doing an objective comparison of their attributes with those of your particular culture.
I would say that until you've studied and internalized (believed through faith) the book of Mormon and DC, etc. you won't come to an understanding of that religion. Until then you just appear to be a loud-mouth bigot.
So according to some, your God puts numbers on sin?
Weird through all the different religions I've studied, I've never seen one sin any worse than another. Unless you are in a Christian religion, then the only unforgivable sin, is refusing the Holy Spirit.
So, if you really think about it, every human commits some sin everyday. Do you remember every "sin" you commit, or think or speak daily?
Some religions believe every time you commit a sin, you have to be rebaptised (like water has anything to do with forgiving sin)
Some religions beleive the only way to a so called "heaven" is Works! Some think it's how "good" you are, or how much time you spend praying or tithing.
Religion has long been the reason for war, killing, and condemnation.
I beleive there is a God but not a God who condone's MAN to lead people into breaking laws. All laws were made for mankinds protection.
Ztg,
It's through faith muslim terrorists beleive their beleifs are Right! It was Faith that war between the Protestant and Catholics in the IRA killed and destroyed innocent people.
It was Faith that 921 men women and children in the People's Temple at Jonestown committed suicide. All these groups follow a MAN, Not a God, though they considered that Man God.
Rebeckah said: "You know, the absolute contempt vomited out on a regular basis for anyone who disagrees with the FLDS is quite disturbing."
It's almost as disturbing as the absolute vomit vomited out on a regular basis by you against the FLDS!
Rebeckah is actually right. There is much printed on the internet, in books, and much written from Joseph Smith's wives in journals.
It seems Flds, not sure about LDS keep daily journals through their lives. Maybe its a form of putting your real feelings on paper. Whatever the reason, The journals have been published.
Rebeckah said:
"Sorry to burst your bubble but those statements are based on veriafiable sources. There are tons of journals, paper articles and documents from that time period that clearly show Joseph's philandering ways. Diarys from the women involved also show the pain and turmoil his behaviors created. Close your eyes if you wish, but truth is truth. In fact, the truth behind the "extermination" order in Missouri was quite an interesting read, as was the REAL reason the Mormons left in February instead of the spring."
Ya right! Just like in future generations then some one just like you will pick up Flora's book, or Carolyn's book, or Elissa's book, or Laurie's movie, etc. and come up with the same conclusion about Pres. Jeffs that you have about the Prophet Joseph. So you will believe the testimony of an apostate like William E. McClellan and totaly walk over and disregard the testimony of Willard Richards, Heber C. Kimball, and scores of others both male and female. And you say you're the objective one. You say 'why can't you look at both sides'? You're just being a bag of hot air!
harley what are you saying? We should outlaw all religions that aren't state-approved and commit war on all countries that have a religion other than ours? What's your point? War is endemic to humankind, and often has nothing necessarily to do with religion, other than it being used as the pretext. Sometimes I don't get you bigots.
Ztg,
I could less what you beleive as far as religion goes. Just follow the laws everyone has to follow.
Your religious beliefs neither make you separate or special.
Cheese,
I'm sorry that you feel me stating and sometimes posting what real people within the foundation of the Mormon faith have written is an attack. Truth is not an attack. If you wish to give me some links to material by these men or titles of their books I will cheerfully read them. I am not closeminded about my sources of information.
How do you reconcile the inaccuracies in the Book of Mormon with evidence to the contrary? (If you don't mind me asking.)
Rebeckah,
As long as we aren't allowed to practice our religion (a belief in and a practice of following PRESENT REVELATION) then there will always be this warfare between the secular society and us. That being said a statement from Heber C. Kimball comes to mind. You talk about all this 'testimony' against the Prophet Joseph, all these 'facts' as you call them. Some of those diarys you refer too were written by William E. McClellan. He was a man who held the position of Apostle in the Church. He appostitized and was instrumental in inciting the Missourians against the Mormons in Missouri. After the bretheren were arrested at Far West they were there in chains ready to be taken away and executed. William E. McClellan steped up to Heber C. Kimball and said "so what do you think of Joseph now?" Heber C said, "I believe more now than I ever did that Joseph is a Prophet of God for I see you in the very condition that he told you you would be in if you didn't stop your adultery!"
So the question still remains: Are you going to step over certain testimony favorable and only focus on the soreheads testimony?
The whole world smells bad to a man with limburger in his mustache.
And this testamony by Joseph himself had nothing to do with the Missouri mess?
In D&C 52:42 Joseph recorded the Lord saying, "Assemble yourselves together to rejoice upon the land of Missouri, which is the land of your inheritance, which is now the land of your enemies."
Can you imagine the old settlers who had claimed this land, cleared it with the sweat of their brow, being told the land was not theirs, but the Mormons'? It was not the mere religion of the Mormons that exasperated the Missourians; it was their arrogance, their united purpose to protect each other and infringe on the rights of other citizens. It was their thefts and their concealments of each other's crimes. There was also the famous Sidney Rigdon speech of July 4, 1838, called the Salt Sermon, where Rigdon threatened the Missourians with extermination. (Comprehensive History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 441.)
With this declaration, violence escalated. The Missourians destroyed the Church-owned printing press. Fighting broke out. Mormons killed settlers at Crooked River. Settlers killed Mormons at Haun's Mill. Two big mistakes the Mormons made were killing two state militiamen, and forming a force called 'Zion's Camp' to go against state troops. Although the Mormon force never fired a shot, their organization constituted treason against the United States of America.
It was during this time that Gov. Lilburn Boggs had had enough, and using Rigdon's own words, made up his own extermination order saying: "either the Mormons must be exterminated, or driven from the state for the public good." Under the circumstances, these were threats and injuries without legal remedies; and although this does not justify a mob, there are few communities in this country, that would not have been exasperated to violence. I saw this same sort of thing happen in Manti when the Mormons were exasperated with the Jim Harmston Group who was declaring the town of Manti a Mecca for their believers.
Somehow I suspect that that the people of Missouri could have made a pretty good case that the Mormons were persecuting them!
"How do you reconcile the inaccuracies in the Book of Mormon with evidence to the contrary? (If you don't mind me asking.)"
I haven't really looked for 'inaccuracies' in it so I don't really know what you're refering to. Like I said it all depends on who you want to believe.
From Mathew (King James version)
13When Jesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am?
14And they said, Some [say that thou art] John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
19And I will give unto thee the KEYS OF THE KINGDOM of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
So Rebeckah, why don't you criticize Peter for having a testimony 'born of the spirit of God'? It's the same as going after me for my testimony. You aren't the one to decide if my testimony is born of the spirit or not!
And I've got two words for your last post "Apostate Narrative"
Anonymous said...
...yes, the Wisan appointed puppets are history.
---------
But Wisan is the only important one, right, he and the judge? Sweep out those vermin and they all go?
So Joseph Smith DIDN'T have a revelation which can be found in the D&C claiming that Missouri was the Mormon promised land and currently in the hands of "the enemy"? Good to know.
I don't defend ANY inaccuracies in the Bible. It's got more contradictions than I do on a day with PMS. (And that saying something.)
Inaccuracies in the Book of Mormon would be things like claiming an advanced civilization of millions of people just vanished without leaving a trace of archological evidence. Also things like claiming this civilization used horses, camels, elephants, cows, steel, and other grains, metals and animals which did not exist on either American continent at the time -- at least nothing has ever been shown that the did and animals, grains and metals in the quantities Joseph Smith wrote about would have been very likely to leave at least traces, if not mountains of evidence behind.
As for the refrain of "Apostate Narrative", apostate does not mean liar. It is self serving to the extreme to claim that ever single person who left the Mormon Church, and a few who didn't but still found tons of questions about the Book of Mormon, were all lying simply because they disagree with the official stance. You accused me of only looking at one side -- seems to me that you're the one guilty of that. I'm willing to read material by both sides -- you're only willing to say "APOSTATE!" and plug your ears. Very sad...
By the way, I just read about the Mountain Meadow Massacre -- very interesting the way they slaughtered men, women and children (but kept the lovely cattle, horses and gold) and then also kept all the children under the age of 8. Am I the only one who sees any parallels between this and a certain raid? It really does make one wonder if one's descendents reap what we sow...
Rebeckah, it seems you have been converted to the Cult of anti-Mormonism.
I see you are studying well, and can even bear your testimony!
I know I've been called a "hater" and a "bigot"...
But it just didn't make sense to me that a trust comprised of mostly FLDS should have an advisory board that were all non-FLDS.
Maybe I'm missing something here....
Pliggy
I don't know that anti-Mormonism is a cult. I'll bet you something like 90% of evangelical Christians are anti-Mormon to some degree.
I guess it's all on how you define "cult."
YUP, the Meadow Mountain Massacre certainly occured. Yup upon orders of Joesph Smith! What a heritage mormons have.
Rebeckah said: "So Joseph Smith DIDN'T have a revelation which can be found in the D&C claiming that Missouri was the Mormon promised land and currently in the hands of "the enemy"? Good to know."
Rebeckah, I challenge you to find one credible source that the properties that the saints occupied in Missouri weren't rightfully theirs by purchase with lawful money. Just because the Lord told them that it was a 'promised' land in the hands of 'their enemies' doesn't mean that they 'stole' the lands.
There is a quote from the movie Braveheart at the beginning, that "history has been written by those who have hanged heroes". Alot of things written by anti-mormons are for sensational-value because that is what sells. Then there are stories that are true,like Peter denying knowing his best friend three times- we obviously don't heve the full context of the story. Be careful in reading what is out there, you may be counting something as evil when actually it is from God.
Rebeckah said:
"Inaccuracies in the Book of Mormon would be things like claiming an advanced civilization of millions of people just vanished without leaving a trace of archological evidence. Also things like claiming this civilization used horses, camels, elephants, cows, steel, and other grains, metals and animals which did not exist on either American continent at the time -- at least nothing has ever been shown that the did and animals, grains and metals in the quantities Joseph Smith wrote about would have been very likely to leave at least traces, if not mountains of evidence behind."
It just dawned on me that I'm having a conversation with an idiot.
harley said...
"YUP, the Meadow Mountain Massacre certainly occured. Yup upon orders of Joesph Smith! What a heritage mormons have."
Like I said "idiots".
"YUP, the Meadow Mountain Massacre certainly occured. Yup upon orders of Joesph Smith! What a heritage mormons have."
No Harley, Brigham Young was in charge then.
"It just dawned on me that I'm having a conversation with an idiot."
Right. Because if I wasn't an idiot I'd never look at the other side of the story, would I? I'd just believe whatever I was told and leave the critical thinking to my "betters".
Hmmm, I don't recall saying that the Mormons "stole" property. I recall showing that Joseph made inflamatory statements about the land being theirs by "promise of God" and of their being clashes. I remember posting material that showed that rather than being poor, persecuted innocents that they played a large part in the "extermination" order that was issued in Missouri. In fact, let me repost just a tidbit: "There was also the famous Sidney Rigdon speech of July 4, 1838, called the Salt Sermon, where Rigdon threatened the Missourians with extermination. (Comprehensive History of the Church, vol. 1, p. 441.)"
Then, as today, the religion founded by Joseph Smith spent more time looking for proof they were persecuted and ignoring the part they played in inciting people against them.
Then I suggest you go read about the Moutain Meadow Massacre Cheese and WC.
By the way,, Yes Peter did deny Christ 3 times, and Christ told peter long before it happened that he would deny him three times. And peter was insulted Christ would say such a thing to him...
Then you read further, and find out afterward, Christ ask Peter, "Do you Love me Peter" three times. It's a pretty amazing story, because it goes in great detail as to why Christ ask Peter that three times.
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cheese said...
“It just dawned on me that I'm having a conversation with an idiot.”
Given your completely ridiculous belief system, should you be calling anyone an idiot? I mean honestly, there is a celestial wizard in the sky that built the entire universe and the one thing that is absolutely necessary to live in his presence is that you have more than one wife. What mental drivel. The only way this crap persists is because it is thrust upon children before their brains even have the capacity to discern truth from fiction and then you make the consequences for dissent so high that no one ever dares to think otherwise. There is definitely an idiot in the room, but you should be thinking about glass houses when you press “publish your comments.”
This post has been removed by the author.
Too many typos, let's try again.
How is an apostate narrative any less reliable than the sensational faith-promoting faithful stories? If a person we now call faithful had said anything bad about the church, they would be discredited as apostate. If Heber C. Kimball had apostatized, today, he would be discounted like other apostates, so it's actually a form of circular reference to say "those that stayed faithful didn't say anything bad about the church, so only listen to them--don't listen to others". It was hard for me to go here myself, but intellectual honesty requires listening to all sides. I have learned that apostate narratives are just as reliable as faithful narratives; take half of both and realize neither side is totally accurate. However, even half of the apostates stories is enough to make one cringe and say, "enough is enough! I'll live my own life."
Now back to the UEP. If the FLDS didn't exist in the '50s, how does this organization now have more right to the land than John Timpson and his group? Or Winston Blackmore and his group? These groups and their ancestors were part of the original settlors. When the FLDS tried to kick out Spencer Johnson, an original settlor, that was over-to-top as far as I was concerned.
Furnace,
So if I have to glasses of water,one with a spoonful of dirt stirred into it and one without then my 'intellectual honesty' would cry out for me to mix them before I drank so as to get the full benifit of all the 'good' in both glasses?!!
Furnace said: "If Heber C. Kimball had apostatized, today, he would be discounted like other apostates,....."
Furnace, you hit the nail right squarely on the head with that statement! Thanks be to Heavenly Father that he had a few good men whom the Prophet could have confidence in! Now we see why the Savior said "Oh will there be any faith left when I come?" Also "Straight is the gate and narrow the way......and few there be that enter thereat."
Or, Cheese, you could try something truly novel and get a clean glass of water. The Mormon claims, actions and faith do not hold up to even a cursory examination, if it's done with honesty.
I think what Furnace is truly saying is that everyone speaks and writes with their own biases and that blind acceptance or rejection of anyone's recall of an event is pretty foolish. If God truly loves us then it makes no sense that He gave us the ability for critical reasoning and then forbids us to use it.
T. K. Kennett said it well when he wrote: "Those of us who refuse to read material that we think we might NOT agree with are no better off than those that cannot read at all."
Furnace said: "How is an apostate narrative any less reliable than the sensational faith-promoting faithful stories?"
Huh?! How is faithful any more reliable (faithful) than un-faithful?
My 'intellectual honesty' is asking how honesty is any more reliable than dishonesty? LOL
How is a faithful spouse any more faithful (reliable) than an unfaithful spouse?
So many questions so few answers.
Rebeckah said...
"Or, Cheese, you could try something truly novel and get a clean glass of water."
Right on! That's a great idea. I'm glad you thought of it!
Rebeckah said...
The Mormon claims, actions and faith do not hold up to even a cursory examination, if it's done with honesty.
-----------
A pointless argument, as you could say the same about any religion. They're all full of shit, but in this country people are free to believe what they believe, regardless of your opinion of it.
Cheese,
"Huh?! How is faithful any more reliable (faithful) than un-faithful?"
You mean like Joseph Smith sending men on "missionary" trips so he can "spiritually marry" their wives?
"My 'intellectual honesty' is asking how honesty is any more reliable than dishonesty? LOL"
Since when is it "dishonest" to tell the truth as you see it? Since when it it "honest" to discount the evidence at hand because it doesn't fit with what you want to believe? i.e. There is NO evidence anywhere (and archeologically and geologically speaking there should be lots for the time period covered in the Book of Mormon) for any of the civilizations recorded in the book of Mormon. The Kinderhook Plates were a fraud. The papyri that Joseph Smith translated wasn't written by Abraham but was a section of the Egyptian Book of the Dead for funeral rites...
"How is a faithful spouse any more faithful (reliable) than an unfaithful spouse?"
You mean like Joseph Smith lying to Emma for at least 11 years about his "spiritual" marriages to other women (many of whom were married at the time) and then having a convenient revelation that if she didn't go along with it she would be utterly destroyed by God?
You know what, Cheese, don't even LOOK at an apostate narrative -- just read the Book of Mormon and see for yourself the inaccuracies in the book which God gave to Joseph that was "True and Correct" unlike anything else in existence. (Then please come and explain to me why ancient Hebrews spoke and wrote Egyptian and threw in French words like "adieu".)
"A pointless argument, as you could say the same about any religion. They're all full of shit,"
Agreed except that when someone makes claims to intellectual honesty but claims "persecution and lies" to all who point out a dissenting view is going to get called on their intellectual DISHONESTY by me.
"but in this country people are free to believe what they believe, regardless of your opinion of it."
True, until they break the law. And I'm not just talking polygamy here, which I agree is a law that needs to be adjusted to allow adults to make their own choices. But the evidence shows from the word Go that the Mormon faith has been based on a total lack of respect for the laws, rights, and property of other people. The Mountain Meadow Massacre and its aftermath was something of a cumulation of atrocities and lies. Lee, who wasn't "apostate" until thrown to the wolves to be the scapegoat for the hierarchy who commanded and covered up the atrocity, wrote a full confession which fully supports what little evidence has been gathered to date. What's truly amusing is the claims of separation of Church and Government when it was the LACK of separation between church and government in Utah which led to the United State Government finally intervening with Utah's statehood. NOW the FLDS want separation of church and government, back then they wanted Brigham Young, their leader and despot to be governer. (We can have any laws we want because God told us so. YOU can't tell us what to do...)
Furnace makes a point about there being 2 sides to every story. Lets examine the FLDS apostate narrative:
Young brides deflowered in Temple sex beds in front of the entire congregation
Huge arsenals of high powered rifles, grenade launchers, etc.
Crematoriums where blood atonement victims were disposed of, including one in the YFZ Temple
An army of 1000 consisting of boys 12 and older pledged to make war against North America or at least defend Warren Jeffs
1000 boys kicked out by Warren Jeffs (how many boys were in the FLDS when Warren took the reigns?)
Waterboarding of babies in order to "break" them, (revealed only after the "waterboarding" scandals of the Bush administration)
Hundrds of babies murdered in cold blood and buried in a massive graveyard. Alleged dead babies buried at YFZ (LE even used cadaver dogs, they couldn't find the dead babies)
little boys and girls routinely molested, women beaten to a bloody pulp.
It is hard to take the FLDS apostate narrative seriously.
Rebecca said,
"just read the Book of Mormon and see for yourself the inaccuracies in the book which God gave to Joseph that was "True and Correct" unlike anything else in existence"
Rebecca, I challange you to get any one of those anti-mormon authors you are reading (or anyone else for that matter), and have then produce something similar to the book of mormon under the same circumstances as Joseph Smith, with same or fewer inaccuracies. I'll wager anything you want within reason.
WC, you need to read the book of Zelph.
Duane, you're taking the extremes. Should we take the faithful extremes.
--There will not be another presidential election (said when Bill Clinton was in office).
--The freeway expansion will never get done (well, knowing how Utah has two seasons, winter and freeway repair, that may very well be a true prophecy)
--The prophet will live 300+ years in THIS life without going through the veil.
--Uncle Rulon stating a certain apostate (who I personally know well and work with) wanting to take his life.
--ALL people who leave the FLDS are adulterers and adulteresses (Warren did state that on one of his tapes)
--JYB stated that even if you are married, if it is not approved by the Prophet, you are an adulterer. (Imagine what would happen if I told someone out of the blue that they were an adulterer because they were married)
--"The government wants to kidnap our children and would even kill them" Repeated 3 times by bishop William at a Saturday meeting.
If we are going to be extreme, lets be equal.
I have asked a question twice that I think is relevant to the subject, and instead, we get religious arguing and no comments relative to the subject. (Of course, I am not Brooke and have no right to be a policeman here). So, I will ask it again (and will not repeat it after this time). If there was no formal religion when the UEP was formed, and Marion Hammon was pressured off the board in the '80's so that the Centennial group had no representation on the board, by what right do the FLDS now claim the UEP? They didn't exist until 50 years later. Why don't the Centennial people have just as much right? (No, I am not part of the Centennial group)
furnace, don't be assinine.
furnace said,
"--"The government wants to kidnap our children and would even kill them" Repeated 3 times by bishop William at a Saturday meeting."
that sounds about right on the money to me.
furnace said,
"I have asked a question twice that I think is relevant to the subject, and instead, we get religious arguing and no comments relative to the subject. (Of course, I am not Brooke and have no right to be a policeman here). So, I will ask it again (and will not repeat it after this time). If there was no formal religion when the UEP was formed, and Marion Hammon was pressured off the board in the '80's so that the Centennial group had no representation on the board, by what right do the FLDS now claim the UEP? They didn't exist until 50 years later. Why don't the Centennial people have just as much right? (No, I am not part of the Centennial group)"
I am not a lawyer, but it seems like with the way estate tax is set up, that there really isn't an argument saying that whomever owned it 50 years ago should have claim today, because approximately 50% tax goes to the government each generation that dies off.
furnace, don't be assinine.
What comment are you referring to?
"--"The government wants to kidnap our children and would even kill them" Repeated 3 times by bishop William at a Saturday meeting."
that sounds about right on the money to me.
This hype was long before the Texas raid, and the Arizona and Utah authorities don't want to get involved in a raid. The context where Bishop William said this was Squeeler's hype so the pigs could better control the other animals. It was not said in context of Texas.
Anytime a religion uses such hype as "the bad guys want to kill us and our children; we need money", all I can say is "WTH". (I won't use a different word, privately or publicly--so figure out what WTH is)
furnace, don't be assinine.
What comment are you referring to?
........................
book of zelph
Furnace
I agree with you on the UEP. It wasn't just Flds who contributed to UEP, it was those who were kicked out, those who split from Flds after Warren became prophet.
The world isn't getting any bigger land mass wise. And Flds are going to have to make some changes, whether they like it or not. America is no longer large enough to isolate groups of people into insular groups. Society is shifting each hour that passes. And closed societies within america are slowly unraveling.
I would also like to point out, how FLDS teach NOT to associate with outsiders, or those considered apostate.(which to me would mean anyone not Flds)
Yet for years FLDS have formed corporations and associate with outsiders, (apostates) on a daily basis. Sounds very hypercritical to me.
furnace
Bishop William - would that be William Jessop?
Furnace, my comments weren't so much directed at you, but were directed at polyg bigots. You are right about there being 2 sides to every story, my point was that the apostate narratives along the likes of FloraJ and Cjessop were so extreme that they should be dismissed out of hand.
Your dispute is more of internal theological differences that don't involve the titillating allegations leveled at polygamists in general.
If I am not mistaken, the dispute with the CP group was settled many years ago. What about all non-flds and FLDS agreeing to a new partition so all FLDS can be in the same geographic area and reform their trust however the heck they want it? The non-FLDS get their own property apart from the FLDS faithful, this is assuming the FLDS all want to be together in close proximity.
" "the bad guys want to kill us and our children; we need money", all I can say is "WTH"."
Well Furnace, it is hard to argue against the leadership, it may have took some time, but they pretty much got that one right. I'm betting this is how the FLDS faithful is going to see it as well.
Duane
Tell me you're not serious. Secular society wanted to kill them and their children?
How much hyperbole can you engage in before your overdose? Secular society wants them to stop knocking up 14 year old girls and marrying off their 12 year old children. There are no FLDS gas chambers. No FLDS children are the subject of brutal experiments.
Really. Are you serious?
Ron, I meant that that is how the FLDS will see it. The YFZ child grab confirms to the FLDS faithful that from their point of view, outsiders are not to be trusted and are dangerous. It is not much of a stretch for them to then wonder if some might end up dead.
On the Topix forum for Westcliffe, this diatribe was posted in response to my comment referring to bigots in the Westcliffe CO area.
"listen bran muffin. we are looking at buying property in westcliffe. i looked at a wonderful log home for sale next to the inbred mormons property..the agent told us about their compound adjacent to this property. we didn't buy it because of that reason. a deal breaker because i don't want to see my property values go into the toilet because of them."
Another one:
Boo Hoo
Cry me a hand full.
The poor little FLDS FREAKS.
BOO HOO
http://www.topix.com/forum/
city/westcliffe-co/TSCQEK2M91OSQ9V1C/p6#lastPost
Referring to them as "inbreds" is racist in my book.
Duane
Yeah, I'd agree. That's pretty racist.
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