Church court can o' worms
Martin Luther: 'Joseph who?'Arkansas courts have found that Mormonism is not a protestant religion.
In Rownak v. Rownak, a divorcing couple agreed "that the minor children be raised in the Protestant faith" and made it part of its divorce decree. When the husband started promoting Mormonism to the children, the wife got the court to find him in contempt. The Arkansas Court of Appeals recently refused overturn that decision.
But News for The Mormon Legal Community is troubled by courts, even in Arkansas, making what appear to be rulings on theological issues.
When should such contracts nonetheless be unenforceable on the grounds that they require courts to make theological decisions, such as whether Mormonism is included within Christianity, whether Jews for Jesus is included within Judaism, whether Reconstructionist Judaism is included within Judaism, or whether Mormonism is included within Protestantism?What about that ruling on whether LDS is a Christian religion?
17 Comments:
Mormonism is neither Christian nor Protestant. It was a made up "religion" and was never accepted in Protestant circles. It's a loner "religion" based on Mason rituals and beyond - secret handshakes, lying for God, baptizing the dead, polygamy, a cultist hatred of Catholics and real Protestant religions.
It's dominated top to bottom by males, who stand as "priesthood" bearers over women and children.
It's members have no say over anything. The "church's" belief in multiple gods and that all males will become like God is blasphemous to Catholics and Protestants. Blasphemy is punishable by eternal damnation.
"I am the Lord thy God . . . and there shall be no strange gods before me."
The Mormon "church" is a cult ruled by a male appointed by other males to pretend he is a prophet.
It is, in two words, utter nonsense.
Hey George, thanks for clearing that up for us!
All religions are made up; it's just that Mormonism is more made up than the others.
George neither understands Mormonism nor traditional Christianity. It represents the difference between the Reformation and the Restoration.
The Protestant denominations were a product of the Reformation era. They broke off from the Roman Catholic Church.
In contrast, the LDS Church, along with the Community of Christ, did not break off from an existing church. They started from scratch, and so are considered "Restorationist" churches. The Jehovah's Witnesses and Christian Scientists are also considered to be Restorationist.
Whether both Protestant and Restorationist churches can be considered equally Christian depends upon one's definition of "Christian". I use a definition of "Christian" designed to promote maximum inclusivity. If you believe Jesus did exactly what the Bible said He did, and you at least accept the Bible as authoritative, then you are a Christian in my purview. This definition promotes greater brotherhood within the Body of Christ and effectively straddles the line between destructive denominationalism on the one extreme vs. sappy syncretism on the other end.
Like so many "apologetics", George fails to understand that the Great Commission is to build up Christ, NOT to tear down Christians.
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Dear Deseret Dawg,
You, of course, have made the most thoughtful and informed post on this subject. However, not to be nitpicky, my friend, rather than call George an "apologetic" I would refer to him as being a "polemicist."
Apologetics defend faith.
Polemicists attack faith.
George is blindly throwing punches at something he does not understand. I am sure that he means well, but he is in error. Perhaps, as Saul before him, he will eventually have a change of heart while traveling his own road to Damascus. Until then, we can expect him to continue misrepresenting and persecuting our people. But, we have reason to look on the bright side -- so far he hasn't resorted to using a hammer.
Love,
A.W.
P.S. For some intelligent and respectful interfaith commentary, I suggest attending the URSA symposium this Saturday at the University of Utah. See the following website for more information:
www.ursajournal.com
Mormons don't consider themselves protestants, they consider themselves restorationists.
And I have to agree with Korihor...ALL religions are "made up"!
Dear Friends,
My faith has lifted me out of failure and suffering, and led me to greater fulfillment and joy countless times in my life. If there is one thing I know for sure, it is that my religion works -- it's not just "made up." There are true principles at work that change lives and bring happiness.
Nothing I ever learned in College has ever done as much for me as what I learned in primary (a program of religious instruction for Mormon kids aged 3 to 11). I am glad that I received both kinds of education, but I know which one has provided me with more truth.
I promise that I am sincere in what I am sharing. My experience may not be the same as your experience. I don't know why you feel the way you do. I'm sure that you have your reasons. But, I owe it to you to share a different point of view:
I have come to know from my own experience that there is a living and loving Father in Heaven. I know that he takes an interest in our lives, that he answers prayers, and that he will help us with our troubles.
I have come to know that we would all be lost were it not for the compassionate self-sacrifice of the Lord Jesus Christ in our behalf. Because of him, we have hope of being freed from both our sins -- and the ultimate consequences of our sins -- if we will come unto him and be saved.
These two things are the most valuable pieces of information I possess. I share them with you.
Love,
A.W.
Amen to that A.W.
Feeling God's love enriches my life and carries me when I struggle.
"Mormonism is neither Christian nor Protestant. "
Well part of that statement is a load of rubbish, as are most of the other comments.
Members belonging to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, consider themselves Christian. We do not consider the church a Protestant Church, as we believe that Christ restored his church.
That said, why should a court decide what religion can be looked at. What about the constitution? I realize it says Congress should stay out of this, but I would think that the Judge was out of line.
What ever happened to respecting the views and believes of others?
Alienated Wannabe - thanks for your response. I've seen the word "polemicist" before, but I've never used it in my own discourse.
I appreciate anyone who increases my own literacy. I simply got into the habit of describing critics of Mormonism as "apologetics" because, in the course of defending what they believe to be the correct Christian faith, they incessantly criticize Mormonism.
"That said, why should a court decide what religion can be looked at. What about the constitution? I realize it says Congress should stay out of this, but I would think that the Judge was out of line. What ever happened to respecting the views and believes of others?"
Well Arc, if religion gets involved in politics (LDS provides 40% of funds for California Prop. 8 campaign), why shouldn't politics get involved in religion? You can't have it both ways. How about both getting out of each other's business!!
AW: if you go back to one of your earlier posts and exchange Heavenly Father and Lord Jesus Christ with Zeus or Apollo, then you would come to the conclusion that the statement just presented would be false due to lack of evidence.
You want to believe it and no one can take that from you; but it still doesn't make it real.
To address one of the posts:
Many made up religions are often helpful to people.
Any religion that believes in
- Adam, Eve and a talking snake
- Noah and the Ark
- Tower of Babel
- and numerous other Bronze Age fables
is made up, especially if you add in
- the Book of Mormon
- the Book of Abraham
- polygamy
- Relief Society
Dear Deseret Dawg,
Well, my friend, if I were a real help I would have written the following instead of what I actually wrote:
Apologists defend faith.
Polemicists attack faith.
"Apologetics" is the field wherein "apologists" do that thing -- whatever the heck it is -- that they do. For example, to the delight of poor Glen, I'm sure, I have appointed myself to be an apologist of sort for Mormonism within the Crawlosphere. The stuff I do, then, is called apologetics. (It's also labeled with less flattering descriptions as well, but we won't go there because it hurts my feelings .)
"Polemics" is the field wherein "polemicists" do what they do. (i.e., George vs. Mormonism, Bill Maher vs. Religion, etc.)
Drawing upon the Greek origins of the words, we could think of the polemicists as waging war upon a particular belief or notion, while the apologists defend against those attacks. They perform a role similarly to that of the prosecution and the defense within a court of law.
Anyway, hope that's useful. Thanks for your patience with my earlier sloppiness.
Love,
A.W.
Dear Korihor,
I think I understand where you are coming from, my friend, but you might be surprised to read my response: I actually believe Zeus is Heavenly Father, and that Jesus Christ is Apollo! So, I wouldn’t quite come to the conclusion you expect, given your example.
You see, for me, the Greek mythology you reference is not just some great falsehood “made up” by man, but rather the tattered remnants of an even more ancient and true account that had been corrupted over time. In my understanding, all of the world’s great religions have their origin in some truth that was had by Adam and passed down to us through Noah. Thus, all of them contain some pearl that inspires me.
And, I entertain the possibility that in many ways we actually create the world in which we live through what we choose to believe. For example, as long as Peter focused upon Jesus, he was able to walk on water. But, when he allowed himself to focus more upon the storm and the waves of the sea, then those things became more real for him and he sunk.
So, I am going to rearrange your parting words just a little bit and serve them back to you: You want to disbelieve in God, and no one can take that disbelief from you, but it still doesn’t make it real -- except in the sense, perhaps, that because you refuse to see God, you don’t see him. And, thus, in a very real way you now “live without God in the world.” That is the reality you choose, and that is the reality you have.
But, there are other realities out there if you are willing to see them. I have shared a little bit of mine with you.
Thanks for visiting with me!
Love,
A.W.
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