Will Prop 8 change Mormonism?
The Mormon church's involvement in the California's vote on banning same-sex marriages is attracting scrutiny on the national and international level.Newsweek's David Waters is struck by the irony of a religion that once sanctified polygamous unions trying to ban any non-mainstream approach to family. Waters cites the explanation of Elder Dallin H. Oaks:
I see irony in that if one views it without the belief that we affirm in divine revelation. . . . The Mormons of the 19th century who practiced plural marriage, male and female, did so because they felt it was a duty put upon them by God . . . . In short, if you start with the assumption of continuing revelation, on which this Church is founded, then you can understand that there is no irony in this.Waters wonders if divine revelation also can, in the LDS church's term, "flow to" homosexual members.
The Economist sees the beginnings of a conservative religious coalition in the Prop 8 struggle that could offset a predicted swing to the political left in the nation's government.
It is an unusual movement indeed that unifies blacks, Mormons and orthodox Jews. It hints at how cultural conservatives might evolve to meet the challenge of an unfavourable Washington political climate in the next few years.The British-based New Statesman finds the battle over Prop 8 is rending the LDS church in two.
From Sacramento to San Diego, there have been reports of Bishops publicly and privately questioning the faith of members who are not willing to donate their time or money to Proposition 8. Some moderate Mormons have even found themselves reaching out to the gay community after receiving the metaphorical cold shoulder from their brethren.In Salt Lake City, mothers of gays are planning a vigil to oppose the LDS Church's support of California's Prop 8.
“I feel exiled from the church over this issue,” wrote one Mormon blogger. “I want to connect with other church members. If there aren’t any anti-Prop 8 rallies in my area, I think I am going to organise one.”
22 Comments:
Will Prop 8 change Mormonism? Well the answer is yes. I think it is encouraging members of the Church to become more actively involved. For so long members have watched as society has slowly disintegrated. In 40 years Hollywood has gone from Leave it to Beaver to Sex in the City.
It is not enough to just be good examples and raise righteous families. It is becoming obvious that our modern society is beoming less influenced by religion and more by Hollywood. As members, we will need to be actively involved in the community to promote family values.
My heroes are the Pacific Island Saints in Oakland who, despite living in one of the most liberal areas, are going door to door for Prop 8. They are true examples of how strong families can counter the world’s influence.
Prop 8 won't change Mormonism as much as the inevitable divisiveness that will continue to increase over issues of morality and personal rights. This is just the beginning of an era when it won't be very cool to be LDS and I predict many members will fall away under the increasingly unpopular positions that the LDS Church will vocally support.
of course it will don't they believe in "honoring and sustaining the law"?
Mormons are afraid. They are are desperate for acceptance from the very Christian denominations that have always reviled them. In the absence of any substantial revelations, members are desperate for their leaders to actually be "prophets". Any directive, no matter how mean spirited, is validation that someone is at the wheel.
Mormons need a scapegoat. The world is is turmoil and they need someone to place the blame. The gays will do. It's too bad that in their efforts to pass Prop 8, the Latter-day Saints must resort to lies and deceit. Yes, this is changing the Church, but sadly, not for the better.
Troy -- born and raised LDS
It's a first stab at dictating laws that are in harmony with current doctrine. Steal feeling the pangs of Article 3 in the Utah Constitution (which ushered Utah into Statehood, the new logic: What's good for the goose is good for the gander. Sadly, the LDS church is losing to global changes - which will affect their future recruiting efforts. The US is the last bastion of hope. If they can make their doctrine law - there will be no more "revelations" about marriage.
Divisiveness within the LDS is more "media generated" then reality. Certainly, some members are offended by the church's position on Prop 8, however, most wholeheartedly support the measure. To those members who are against it have you ever heard of the "The Family: Proclamation to the world"?
As hard as it is to believe, the LDS church is only concerned with doing the work of God with all accompanying implications. Popularity in the eyes of anyone besides God is of little consequence. The church will stand for truth in the face of changing values no matter how unpopular. The only limiting factor is the faithfulness of its members.
Of course it is true that HOW the church handles controversy can always be improved upon, but in this case, if some members lose their faith then perhaps it wasn't strong enough in the first place. I suspect a lot of "born and raised" LDS people have yet to prove their faith.
In the end it is not the relationship with the church but with God that matters and no posturing of any kind can fool the careful observations of a just God.
I grew up in Sandy, Utah. Raised Mormon. I trusted "elders" in my community and church, thought they spoke the truth and had my best interest at heart. Looking back, they were confused and clueless and always instilled fear in me. Because of Sunday school rhetoric, firesides, mutual nights, I thought of San Francisco as this horrible place that would fall into the Pacific in a horrible earthquake because of the gays and God's eventual wrath. To the "yes on 8" high donor Mormons in Utah, please stay the hell out of my state's politics. Please keep your divisive ideology in your "this is the place" part of the country. Stay the hell out of mine. You "yes on 8" supporters actively seek to deny people rights, equal rights. Are you kidding me? There is nothing holy or rightgeous about that. I am totally fortunate to live in such an innovative, progressive and inclusive city....oh yeah, and if the city sinks into the Pacific because of an earthquake, it'll be tectonic plates shifting...not God being pissed at the GAYS.
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Religious or not, it's just not biologically possible for homosexuals to procreate. Biologically their anatomies do not complement each other. Thus a homosexual relationship is not natural as proven by science.
One question I have is: why are there so many homosexuals in our species and so few if any in any other species. If we could all get ourselves to act naturally with how nature intended us to be, we would not have all this controversy, LDS or not.
If society promotes and endorses gay marriages in the name of "tolerance" and "equal rights" then what's going to keep nudists and naturalists generations from now pursuing the right to go nude anywhere in public in the name of "tolerance" and "personal rights". What will keep prostitution and things of that nature from being endorsed and legalized in the future?
My point is, if governments don't draw the line somewhere, set a standard and hold to it and instead continue to endorse anything considered to be sinful and destructive in nature by many, all in the name of equality and tolerance, then they will be dooming the society to ever more chaos, confusion, crime, plagues, despair, etc.
Homosexuality not normal? Not natural as proven by science? Guess you missed this lecture when you went to the Y:
http://newsnet.byu.edu/story.cfm/49488
People who support the Yes on 8 campaign need to come up with better explanations as to why it is necessary to take away rights that were granted by a CA's constitution as determined by a Republican-majority court. Silly arguments like "oh the nudists will be next" or "they will teach it in our schools!" or "they will make churches perform gay marriages!" are scare tactics and have nothing to do with the court's ruling.
Mormons don't have to marry non-Mormons in their temples and they never will have to. I would never, ever want to marry in a temple or church anyway. We allow churches to teach whatever nonsense they want. This is a civil issue. We pay taxes just like everyone else and deserve civil marriage. Amending the constitution to write discrimination into it is wrong and un-American.
My Dear Friends,
As you know, California's Proposition 8 seeks to amend the state Constitution so that marriage would only be legal between one man and one woman. In supporting this measure, I believe that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is engaged in an extremely selfless act of compassion towards our homosexual brothers and sisters. I know it may not seem that way to some of you, but I am convinced that this is the case. Please allow me to illustrate why I think as I do:
During the time that I was in junior high I had two different English teachers. One was a seemingly ornery old-school-woman who insisted upon forcing her students to diagram sentences, memorize grammar rules, do homework and pass difficult tests. The other was an easy going old-hippy-man who gave us word puzzles to play all term long without much homework or testing ever. As a kid, you can imagine which teacher I liked better -- the fun one, the old-hippy-man!
But, as I have grown older I have come to better understand which one of the two really cared for me the most, worked the hardest for my best interests, and better served me as a teacher -- the one that actually taught me something, the old-school-woman.
Sadly, she was not a popular teacher. And, I remember how hurt she appeared when my friend and I asked her to sign the forms that allowed us to transfer out of her class and into the class of the old-hippy-man. Oh, how I now regret that! But, I have learned my lesson:
Today, I can clearly see the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints acting in a manner similar to this dear old-school-teacher. It, among the very few, has the courage, the integrity, the wisdom and the love necessary to tell the truth to a world that would prefer to be seduced by lies.
The Church is not trying to be popular. It is not trying to hide from the painful persecution that will surely follow. Rather, it is simply doing what is right -- for society today, for our future children, and for our beloved brothers and sisters who deal with same sex attraction.
The truth is that all of us have been given issues with which to deal in life. And, the truth is that all of us would prefer to take the course of least resistance. Homosexuals are not unique in that respect. We all deal with one thing or another.
The question, then, is who do we believe when trying to decide how to live our lives?
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, just as historical Judaism, Christianity and Islam, was founded upon the belief that God reveals himself and his will to prophets who then act as his messengers. For those of us who are believers, that is why we belong to the Church -- through profound personal and spiritual experience, we have become convinced that those who lead the Church are in fact "true messengers."
Apparently, those members who now find fault with the Church's efforts seem to be saying that they no longer accept that idea. Apparently, they have become converted to another paradigm.
That, of course, is extremely sad news to folks like me who remain convinced of the Church's truthfulness. We love these back-sliding members and we wish them well. But, this kind of apostasy is not something new to us. We have been dealing with it from the very beginning. And, we know that though many of these people may choose to leave the Church, they will not leave us alone.
Like some kind of obsessed and scorned lover, they will continue to stalk the institution, its leaders, and its faithful followers. They will misrepresent who we are and what we do. They will unite with and stir up our enemies to persecute us. And, as a people, we will suffer greatly because of them -- even unto the losing of our lives.
Bank on it.
We have seen it before.
We will see it again.
But, with the help of a loving Heavenly Father enough of the Saints will survive that the work will go forth. Joyfully, some of these prodigals will return. And, soon we'll have this tale to tell: All is well.
That is my testimony.
Love,
A.W.
A.W., I'll call you that since you didn't leave your name with your proclamation. Your attempt to be humble through testimony, which really looks to others as a self-righteous proclamation of your faith's superiority, lacks any logical arguement why Prop. 8 is necessary.
Even more insulting, it appears you seek to equate your church with a dutiful teacher and others who are not of your faith and support civil rights to a hippy. It's this kind of condescending behavior that turns non-mormons and some LDS church members off to the Yes on 8 campaign and your church as well.
As one of these so-called "backsliding members" you refer to, who is stalking your "institution," I would have to disagree with you. Gay marriage supporters are not stalking religious institutions, rather churches, especially the LDS church, are stalking us. All we seek is equal protection under the law, due process, separation between church and state and free-agency as tax paying, consenting adults who happen to be in love with someone of the same sex.
The anti-gay marriage arguments will look as silly 20 years from now as the pro-segregation and pro-slavery arguments do now.
The anti-gay and pro-slavery/segregation stances all have at least one thing in common: they all based their positions in part on Scripture and what god allegedly wanted.
Certainly, religious people were on the other side of these issues as well, particularly slavery. Religion has been opposed to most human social progress. Prop 8 is no different.
If members leave the church over prop 8 then that's sad but so be it . There hearts where never in the right place and churches stand has always been and always will be for the traditional family" NOTHING" has Changed . What were they thinking ?? If they don't like it then you should join another church .
These protesters call us hateful but the signs of the protester are by far more hateful and they are doing nothing but harming for their cause . They are destroying private property , yelling profanity and threating LDS members. Every evening the news show them doing this , it makes them look like a bunch of nuts .This will backfire on them in future elections . The do feel sorry for them , something is wrong to make a man what to be married to a man or women to women , It's not normal . Very very sad for sure !!
I am glad to see a church sand for what is right . way tooo gray areas in today culture . Wrong is wrong !! Thank god there are people standing up for what is write !! This will not hurt the Mormons .
Good for them !!
Will Prop 8 change Mormonism ?? NO !!!!
It's not a Mormon thing but a moral thing !!
Jd
""Because of Sunday school rhetoric,"" ??
sorry
you don't have a clue what your talking about . They have NEVER taught you any hatred or anything to make you or anyone have hate towards people in S.F. or anywhere else and you know it . Your the one talking rhetoric !!
equal rights ??
Yes you already have them !!
A gay male has the RIGHT to wed a a female . A gay female had the RIGHT to wed a male just like me !! Equal !!!
Well said Will !!
Religious or not, it's just not biologically possible for homosexuals to procreate. Biologically their anatomies do not complement each other. Thus a homosexual relationship is not natural as proven by science.
One question I have is: why are there so many homosexuals in our species and so few if any in any other species. If we could all get ourselves to act naturally with how nature intended us to be, we would not have all this controversy, LDS or not.
If society promotes and endorses gay marriages in the name of "tolerance" and "equal rights" then what's going to keep nudists and naturalists generations from now pursuing the right to go nude anywhere in public in the name of "tolerance" and "personal rights". What will keep prostitution and things of that nature from being endorsed and legalized in the future?
My point is, if governments don't draw the line somewhere, set a standard and hold to it and instead continue to endorse anything considered to be sinful and destructive in nature by many, all in the name of equality and tolerance, then they will be dooming the society to ever more chaos, confusion, crime, plagues, despair, etc.
October 31, 2008 12:18 PM
TRoy Mormons are afraid. They are are desperate for acceptance from the very Christian denominations that have always reviled them. In the absence of any substantial revelations, members are desperate for their leaders to actually be "prophets". Any directive, no matter how mean spirited, is validation that someone is at the wheel.
Mormons need a scapegoat. The world is is turmoil and they need someone to place the blame. The gays will do. It's too bad that in their efforts to pass Prop 8, the Latter-day Saints must resort to lies and deceit. Yes, this is changing the Church, but sadly, not for the better.
Troy -- born and raised LDS ??? YA RIGHT !!
I just love all these people saying they are Mormons and bashing their church . I don't believe any of it . Anyone can say they are members . If you are/where real members in heart and sole you would NEVER say that . Your just mad because mom or dad made you go and you never did try !!
I know i have been there and done that !!
Too bad !!
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