Chill, if not heal
Voices in the gay rights community are beginning to speak out against some of the recent demonstrations against the Mormon church, the worst being vandalism at ward houses. Ryan Davis at Huffington Post says he's "a little scared of the anti-Mormon fervor" building up to a protest at the LDS Temple in New York:
Seriously guys, cut it out. I know you're angry. I know you need some way to express that anger, but the Mormon Temple in NYC makes no more sense than your grandparents' retirement community in Sacramento or The Apollo Theater in Harlem. Can't we be better than this?The angry — and belated — demonstrations are only bringing negative press, Davis says:
We were out-organized and out-fundraised in California. That's why we lost. It's great to see all these voices speaking out about Prop. 8 now that it's too late to do anything about it. Where were these people weeks ago when the Equality Groups were on their knees begging for money?
25 Comments:
This same wuss-assed attitude was apparent at last Friday's protest in SLC, where our three gay legislators all said gay people should talk to the church instead of hate it.
I say: Don't be a bunch of pansies, gay people. This Mormon cult was instrumental in Prop. 8's passage and should be the target of ongoing protest. Make the Mormons feel what it is like to be discriminated against.
Mormon whining about the protests is laughable -- like Nazi camp guards whining that the prisoners are complaining about being gassed.
Momons will reap what they sowed.
Full court press. The LDS Church is now a political movement, not a religion. Mormon robots are now foot soldiers of the republican party. More protests and boycotts, starting with Marriott.
Boycott Marriott hotels. Tell Dave Marriott what you think:
david.marriott@marriott.com
Nice, Gary. Way to go ahead and blame the gay community for breaking glass at the ward houses. I'm sure that will help the LDS members get back to feeling like the victims again.
Quote from Orson Scott Card's column that he quoted: The No on 8 campaign raised more money than the Yes on 8 campaign. Unofficial estimates put No on 8 at $38 million and Yes on 8 at $32 million, making it the most expensive non-presidential election in the country.
The Yes on 8 coalition may have been better organized, but the No on 8 had much better fundraising.
Wow, they have really nailed it on the head here. Good to see some rational thought coming from the gay community on this issue.
I know the protests are not ever going to change any Mormon's minds. The previous posters belive if we can help Mormon's feel like what it is to be discriminated against, then they will somehow change? Please.
The gay community, which is contatnly equating its struggle with that of former civil rights activits, needs to learn some lessons from those who were in the civil rights movement. The civil rights movement was far from perfect, but it rarely was angry.
Dr. King preached peace and unity. He knew it would take time. Hr urged patience and restraint. he urged African Americans to be good example in their community.
The thing that has always held back the gay rights movement in my mind is that there is no "Dr. King" of their movement, so to speak. The gay leaders that are shown in the media are either repulsively flamboyant and out of touch with real gay America or they are angry.
While I know a number of gay friends who are very active in serving their communities, it tends to be in gay oriented community activism. What the gay community should do is steal a page from the LDS playbook: start serving and working together on common interest projects in communities. A gay group and a Catholic church working together to feed the homeless. A gay group painting a senior center run by the Methodists.
It's hard to hate those who help you. I think it would also change the negative publicity created by these protests. I know there are those who will argue that gays should take care of their own first since they lack so many services, and I know there are others still who will argue that they are so discriminated against that other groups won't let them participate. Believe me, I know if the gay community went from "We're queer and we're here" to "We're queer and we're here to help", I think they would see a steady change that would benefit all.
If helping your community to help your cause seems, in the verbage of the first anonymous poster, "wussy-assed", then the gay community will continue to struggle.
Anon...the civil rights movement rarely was angry? really? you missed Malcom X, even Ali? you missed the riots? can't recall Evers' or even Marcus Garvey's anger at times? did you hear the slogan, 'By any means necessary'? did you think that stood for by any nice, polite, and civil means available?
not only that, but there was a reason, there still is a reason to be angry. there are also plenty that serve. with that said, what's wrong with the impulse that gay leaders today share with MLK jr.: they're here because injustice is here. any assymetry in the law, any rule a majority (or minority)imposes that it isn't willing to follow itself is an injestice. right?
I think Malcom X and Garvey would be considered leaders of an angry minority that tried to hijack a more peaceful movement. We don't celebrate either of their birthdays, do we?
If you want to be angry, then fine. It is just turning more people aginst you and your cause.
Or you can find you inner Gandhi and Dr. King and channel that energy elsewhere.
What did Macolm X truly accomplish?
What laws did he change? Did JFK cite him as a reason for passing civil rights legislation?
Your anger betrays your cause.
This whole thing is whacked!! Anger and vitriol only causes opposing groups to dig in their heels. Quit whining, screaming and "protesting" and work within the system. The Catholic, LDS and other churches churches are not going to change their moral positions, nor should they. All the screaming protests in the world are not going to change that. As for supposed boycotts, why try to punish the majority of people because a minority exercised their right to participate in the political system?
My only hope is that the vitriol escalates, and quickly. The mormon cultists who financed prop 8 have hell to pay - and that hell is being visited upon them now.
They should have known this would happen. The very christians they got into bed with on prop 8 would be the first to vote them off the planet. If the mormons thought they could lead the charge on a discriminatory measure, this should teach them to think again.
There will be much more vandalism. Some of it will come from angry queers. Much of it will come from Christians who feel empowered to hate mormons.
The sentiment where I live: burn their temples to ashes, and then tax the ashes. I don't know that I agree, but you should have seen this coming.
By the way, the press has not been entirely negative. There are lots of people who would love to see mormon temples burned, and are only too happy to encourage a few outraged gay people to do it.
The irony. A cult founded by an adulterous pedophile trying to legislate family values. Again, you should have seen this coming.
My advice to mormons: get your jesus jammies on, and hope to hell they're flame retardant.
Fine then. I have tried to urge restraint and peaceful prtest, and you have responded with hate and anger.
I pity you for feeling so small and insignifcant that the only feling you can feel right now is hate and blame.
Second, you said "hell is being visited upon them now". See, this is the outrageous flamboyance I am talking about. If you think bringing hell to the Mormons is protests and some signs, then you are a sad site. That's is not our idea of hell. That's not anyone's idea of hell. That's just silly.
Why don't you just openly call for the murder of Mormons? Say it now, I dare you: I want to murder all Mormons.
Your anger and hatred will be met with a peaceful plea.
It's interesting how people want to exact hateful revenge on the "hateful Mormons." Mormons, just like everyone else, have the right to voice their opinions on any issue.
Work on putting your agenda into law through normal political processes, not through harassing people. Try to use reasonable arguments to support your position, people, even some Mormons, might agree with you.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and any other church or religion, has the right and responsibility to voice its opinion on issues that affect them.
The family is ordained of God. Since God has ordained it, He gets to decide what the family is. He has defined it today as the union of a man and woman who raise their children in righteousness. The family as ordained by God is the only institution that can lead men, women, and children to true, lasting happiness. That has been my experience in life.
I know it's hard to believe, but if you think on these things and try to understand them and live them, then you'll begin to gain understanding. I promise you.
I know that the bad apples are making the news. The LDS Church opened themselves up to this protest by encouraging their members to give money to this cause.
They will pay the price and I think they deserve it. Believe in your religious views just don't shove them in my face because I will do the same to you. All is fair in love and war.
Anonymous at 1:09,
What excalty do you mean, "pay the price"? Are you planning to harm Latter-day Saints and their families? How does that help your cause?
What exactly does "all is fair and love and war" mean?
Is this a war? No, it is a democratic process.
The homosexual community is really starting to sound like hawkish warmongers. I am so disappointed, I now regret supporting your cause.
Finally, a voice of reason. I thought McCain ran the worst campaign I have seen in years, but his camp would be genius's when compared to the anti 8 crowd. I live in California and saw all the ads more times than I wanted. Not a single ad featured a gay person. It was like they were ashamed of them. A ad showing a gay business or community leader in a positive light would have done wonders. Instead, what ads that were ran played right in the hands of the pro 8 crowd. All though the anti 8 crowd had a 17 point lead, they were able to snatch defeat from the hands of victory.
Anonymous at 2:19, you hit the nail on the head when you said how the anti-prop 8 people thought they had a large lead.
I think it is more than just the bitter sting of the loss (you don't see McCain supporters protesting outside of businesses that contributed to Obama, do you?)
I think it was an assumption that they would win without doing anything and this fall expectation that has really fueled the fire.
They didn't just lose, they were told they would win and they were outmanuvered and outhustled. They will say they were outspent, but that's crap.
I'm as pissed off as anyone about my former church taking away my rights. However, attacking the Mormon Church only makes them feel more in the right. Persecution, to them, is a sign that they are doing God's will. It's part of their history, and only makes them stronger and less willing to listen.
Besides, most Mormons will not comprehend the idea that they have hurt anyone. They only understand what they think God wants, and how could that hurt anybody? And does it matter anyway if it's God's will?
I couldn't begin to tell you what the best approach to this is, but I can tell you that protesting and attacking will change nothing. In fact, the best thing to do is get them where they got us--in their wallets. Take away their tax-exempt status as a church. That would get them thinking. That's how blacks ended up getting the priesthood back in 1978. I don't see why it wouldn't spur a revelation in 2009!
Geez, it is amazing how we interpret history. Don't you know we wouldn't be celebrating Martin today if it hadn't been for the Malcolms who beat down the grass first and made dealing with Martin seem reasonable. These are leadership styles that feed off each other. By and large the violence during the civil rights movement came from those who resisted change -- whites. Not from those who advocated change. Nothing would have been accomplished without all these patriots!!!!!!!!!
Mormons do not make up over 50% of the population of California. Make sure you hate everyone that voted for proposistion 8, that way you can be fair. If you are going to start burning down buildings and killing people, please make sure that you spread the hate to everyone.
Where's the vitriole for the black community that voted overwhelmingly for Prop 8, or the Catholics, and so many others that support traditional marriage?? What hypocrites! The Gay Community wants others to be tolerant but then won't allow any opinion to be heard but theirs. California already has a domestic partner law that gives gays all the rights of married couples without the name. So what's the big deal for them.
The bigotry and hatred on this comment board speaks volumes.
A vote happened. Get over it. Feel free to try to take away the church's tax-exempt status. Is that what you really want? Imagine if you were successful, thus leaving the church empowered to take a much more visible and influential role in politics. Is that really what you want?
Get over it. Move on. Start doing something useful.
The logic used here by some has now crossed over into simple insanity:
These are comments from the very readers of this blog:
"A cult founded by an adulterous pedophile trying to legislate family values."
"The sentiment where I live: burn their temples to ashes, and then tax the ashes."
"Believe in your religious views just don't shove them in my face because I will do the same to you."
There are those among the gay community that have simply humiliated their own cause. How can one group expect acceptance of their values in today's society if they also plan to burn religious temples to the ground?
Religious views were never "shoved in your face". Instead, religious views were used as a defense against your unique family values which you want to shove down our throats.
Respect the political process. The vote is over. Respect the majority decision. A minority vote must not overturn that. File court papers if you must, but screaming and stomping on crosses (which I saw this week) only speaks volumes of why Christians oppose your cause.
I know many wonderful people in the gay community. I respect them as my friends. I understand that they are already entitled to civil union rights in California. But, please do not change my definition of marriage. If you must, write your own definition, but do not alter mine. And based on last week, several Mormon, Catholic, and Black groups agree.
Smile. If you believe your cause is the right one, one which will bring you joy, then smile. Stop the hate yourselves.
The "No-on-8 community" lost in a fair and open democratic vote.
Now, they are trying to win through McCarthyism and intimidation.
It won't work. If anything, it will backfire.
'Make the Mormons feel what it is like to be discriminated against.'
You have got to be kidding me.
Speaking of dumb quotes, Fred Karger of Californians Against Hate said of the LDS church "They've awakened Godzilla." Does that mean mormons are Mothra? as I recall Mothra always won....
As a gay person, I don't want dialogue with mormons or any other religious group that questions my basic civil rights. Reading posts here, I'm stunned by how many people resort to religion to justify a civil measure. The mormons have long treated Utah as a separate country, one where church and state are one. This has kept Utah and Utahns backward in many ways, as anyone who has ventured outside the Zion curtain knows.
Under our constitutional form of law, you don't vote on civil rights. Prop 8 is likely to be struck down by the Supreme Court of CA.
Gay people have a right to be outraged and angry at the mormons - who led the charge to deny them a right granted under CA's constitution. Am I happy that vandalism is happening? Not particularly. But I can't deny feeling a twinge of glee in seeing mormons get what they deserve.
To those of you who claim that gay groups should seek dialogue, I tell you this: we don't want dialogue with a fringe cult that questions our right to exist. We want rights, and we want them from the state, not your "church".
I look forward to the day that the cloud of darkness that is mormonism is wiped from the planet. But that day will have to come because people recognize that it is a looney cult, not because we vote it out of existence. Again, civilized people don't vote on civil rights. When civilization comes to Zion, mormonism will cease to exist.
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