Let my people go
The LDS church just doesn't seem to get it.
Jews really, really don't want their Holocaust victims baptized by proxy into the Mormon religion. The Jews, of course, think the whole concept of baptism of dead people is ridiculous, but it still bugs them that the Mormons won't stop doing it.
Ernie Michel, a long-time crusader against the Mormon practice, was appalled to find out his parents, who were murdered at Auschwitz, had been claimed by the LDS church:
My mother and father were killed in the Holocaust for no other reason than they were Jews. How can the Mormons victimize them a second time and falsely claim their souls for eternity?Sen. Orrin Hatch, a Mormon, explained to Michel that this baptizing of the dead was "done out of love for Jewish people."
Apparently, Mormons love Jews so much they want to erase their Jewishness in the hereafter.
Holocaust survivors are asking the Mormons, again, to cut it out. Says Michel:
We do not ask for, or want your love. We ask you to leave our six million Jews, all victims of the Holocaust, alone, they suffered enough.
20 Comments:
and to think that mormons consider themselves to be descendants of Israel (Jacob) by genealogy or adoption. Does that mean that all mormons are jewish?
The complaints are based on total ignorance of mormon theology. When mormoms perform baptisms by proxy in their temples, this does not "claim their souls" or "convert them to Mormonism" in the afterlife or victimize them in any way. It does none of those things. In fact, it merely provides the deceased with a choice. Obviously, that means the individual can choose to remain Jewish, Catholic, athiest, or whatever.
That being said, if the survivors of the Holocaust want the practice stopped for their ancestors then that request should be honored.
I think the bigger issue is logistics. The Church has honored these requests, several times and in good faith, and continues to monitor the on-going situation. But individual cases keep slipping through because the genealogical records are vast and numerous people from all over the world have input into them, almost like a "wiki" file.
Plus I'm always a little skeptical when people meet with their "opponents" in private, hammer out an agreement in good-faith, and then one side (in this case, the Jews) suddenly goes postal in the press in a unilateral fashion. McCain pulled this on Obama in mid-September when he suspended his campaign and tried to look presidential by delaying the first debate, but luckily it backfired on him.
Hopefully the same will happen to the Jews here.
The Mormons baptize all dead people. If they excluded the Jews, then they would be anti-Semitic.
At least the Mormons believe that Jews have a shot of getting into heaven. The Baptists believe that "God does not hear the prayer of a Jew" and that Jews will spend eternity burning in hell if they do not accept Jesus in this lifetime.
Good God.
I can't believe the posts from some of these commenters--absolute disrespect and thick-headed ignorance. Let me explain it as clearly as I can, since I know Mormons suffer from an appalling lack of intelligence due to inbreeding (how is that for disrespect? Hurts, doesn't it?):
Six million Jews were murdered because of their beliefs. It is disrespectful and wilfully ignorant to co-opt their memory and essentially attempt to eradicate their identity by "providing them a choice" in the afterlife--never mind how ridiculous the practice of baptising the dead is. How would you like it if I provided YOUR ancesters with a choice by engaging in some bizarre ceremony involving canola oil and readings from "Are You My Mother?" in my best Ronald Reagan voice, all while reciting the names of your mother, your father, and great grandparents, in an attempt to convert them to Satanism in the afterlife? You'd be a little pissed, especially if I KEPT doing it.
Jews have asked you to stop. Now stop it.
Plus, Mormons, remember how sensitive you are about your precious "pioneer" heritage and Haun's Mill? You don't want anyone messing with the memory of the folks who died for their LDS faith, do you? Well, I think I'll posthumously convert them to Buddhism. Because they died for no reason, and it's too bad they followed such a ridiculous religion. Maybe they can finally get it right in the afterlife.
And you think the Jews have "gone postal" in the press? Mormons, you've been whining about religious equity, respect, and fair treatment for well over a century. And when someone calls YOU on it, suddenly you accuse them of "going postal in the press"? Wow. Grow a pair, Mo-mos, and when six million of your own are wiped out for no other reason than the fact that they wear funny underwear and refuse to (publicly, wink wink) drink a beer, then we'll talk.
What a cauldron of feces this debate is.
If you buy the LDS doctrine to begin with, the whole baptism by proxy bit is to give the dead a second chance if they want it
No one forced to do anything.
And since most of us see this idea as rather fanciful at best, who gives a crap?
If it is true, no one's forced.
If it's in the same arena as, say, the moon being made of cheese, then it doesn't mean anything.
It could all come down to this,.....MYOB.
The poster opening with, Good God,
Thank you, you spoke my mind.
This is a matter of arrogance vs. courtesy. If I ask my Mormon neighbor to please stop mowing my lawn in the shape of Moroni, I mean STOP IT!
Let's say this continues " out of love" for Moroni loving botanists everywhere.
Out of the love for MY rights I escort this one off the premise with a dis invite to never never return as it is now the only recourse left to me.
But, out of love, I know you will return.
Because that's how it is with the church. You do not understand "NO." until people are forced to deal with you in a same manner or need to END the relationship entirely. It's very simple, but for some reason allowing others their rights has never been something the church understands. Maybe because they are so often " Misunderstood."
I can see how this happens........because that statement reoccurs every time the church is caught in a lie.
You offer nothing but a great disrespect to the Jews and all who are watching. Respect " No" for an answer, then maybe people will respect you.
basically, by asking mormons to stop baptising the dead, you are participating in a form of religious bias, are you actually going to sit there and criticize others for their beliefs (ringing any bells?)
let them do what they feel they must, if you actually have faith in your religion and it's afterlife then you shouldn't care what else happens (in the name of the) deceased, they should be taken care of according to their faith. It's an act of love by the mormons who want to 'share' their salvation, i see it as no harm done. it will all be sorted out in the afterlife regardless.
"If I ask my Mormon neighbor to please stop mowing my lawn in the shape of Moroni, I mean STOP IT!"
maybe you should mow your own damn lawn.
Regardless of the merits of either side, is there anyone who does not believe that this specific act, ie, breaking off talks, is directly related to all the bad press the Mormons are receiving for their involvement with California's Proposition 8?
People who make their living by bitching about this sort of thing are so worthless to society.
I'm sure if they're ancestors could see them whining this way, they'd be embarrassed.
I probably would mow my own lawn,if that pesky neighbor would use his manners.
But like you, he has missed the point completely. If someone asks you to stop, them simply that should be respected.
Its about common courtesy. Since your so eloquent shall I help you with big words this time?
"How would you like it if I provided YOUR ancestors with a choice by engaging in some bizarre ceremony...yada yada yada"
I would'nt care. That's the point. Besides, my ancestors are too smart to choose your world view.
please...go ahead and perform rites for me after I'm dead. I don't mind having my bases covered...
The church policy is you can perform baptismal rites for your own ansestors without anyone's permission. But, if you are not related you must receive permission from that person's family. So, one person cannot represent an entire population and say, "Don't baptize us," because permission is given or withheld on a individual basis. If this gentleman does not want his ansesters baptised then that request should be honored. But, he cannot speak for the entire Jewish population.
A little fair telling of the circumstances from the Salt Lake Crawler would be appreciated.
The facts are that the LDS Church HAS honored its word in this matter.
The LDS Church entered into an agreement with concerned Jewish groups almost 13 years ago. The agreement called for:
-- The removal of names on the LDS geneological records derived from holocaust registries
-- recinding the baptism of known holocaust Jews
-- restrictions on future procedures for submitting holocaust Jewish names into the regisgtry,
-- policy notifications regarding the submission of holocaust Jewish names
-- and the right to submit holocaust Jewish names with permission of blood relatives and/or related LDS members.
-- the agreement did not require that names be vetted for holocaust status prior to submission.
It was a known reality that in a database of 600,000,000 people a few Jewish holocaust names would inevitably get onto the list. Provisions were made for interested Jewish parties to notify the Church for additional removals of verifiable names.
The agreement never barred the proxy baptism of those with Jewish heritage.
The LDS Church has lived up to evey point of the agreement. The Church has not deliberately, nor actively sought to proxy baptise holocaust Jews. It willingly has removed verified names upon request. The Church is in the process of implementing an upgraded geneological system that will better manage this issue.
It is all fine and good for the Salt Lake Crawler to take cheap shots at the LDS Church. (He needs that foil to keep his blog afloat.) He should at least try to give his readers both sides of an issue.
If a reader would like to know what the LDS Church says about this issue, go to http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/.
You aren't likely to be converted to Mormonism by reading this material; you certainly won't be "converted" against your will. You can even reject cookies if you want to. But the level of discourse on this matter might be raised if you were aware of what the Church itself says about its beliefs and about its practices with regard to Holocaust victims.
My superstition supersedes your superstition.
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